Question regarding Gimei signatures & dates

[AdamH]

Has anyone seen a gimei signature along with forged date on the opposite side of the nakago?  Would a forger go so far as to even fake a date?  I have only seen examples with just the signature. 

I am wondering if a date is provided, would that increase the chance that its a valid signature?  Also assume that both signature and date look to be written at the same time and not years apart. 

[Baba Yaga]

I've seen an Gimei Tsuda Echizen no kami Sukehiro as you expained which was close enough to be an authentic Tsuda Echizen no kami Sukehiro. The question is who signed the blade? Was it a helper? A fellow smith? Should the Nakago be ground down, repatina and submited?  The world may never know, but Japan did bring us Gimei and a long time ago. 

[Rivkin]

Not uncommon especially with things like Sadamune where the notion "it is THE Sadamune" is important.

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think forgers would do everything they can to fake something. 
A smith for example could make a whole sword just to put another smiths signature and date on it. 

[Jacques D.]

an example here 

 

 

[AdamH]

Let me give some context.  The below signature shows Bishu Osafune Kiyomitsu and the date Eisho 2nd year August day, which puts this in the Muromachi period.

The seller states the sword is was crafted in the ShinShinto period by a smith in the Koyama Munetsugu lineage.  From my understanding, this group created Bizen Muromachi style swords.  

Looking at the nakago, this does not look ShinShinto, and I cant find any Kiyomitsu from the Shinshinto period..  So I was thinking either this was a gimei signed during shinshinto, or the seller is just plainly incorrect. 

 

[Geraint]

Dear Adam.

 

You have really answered your own question; it's either a gimei from the Shinshinto period or the seller is incorrect.  (I suppose another option is gimei from the Shinto but Koyama smiths did Bizen den so....)

There are quite a few papered blades on line to compare it with but things to note are the position of the mei on the nakago and the condition of the nakago.

 

It is possible that the seller submitted the blade to shinsa who came up with this conclusion.

 

Might be worth your while to link to the sale and others can then add to your perceptions.

 

All the best.

 

[Rivkin]

12 hours ago, AdamH said:

Let me give some context.  The below signature shows Bishu Osafune Kiyomitsu and the date Eisho 2nd year August day, which puts this in the Muromachi period.

The seller states the sword is was crafted in the ShinShinto period by a smith in the Koyama Munetsugu lineage.  From my understanding, this group created Bizen Muromachi style swords.  

Looking at the nakago, this does not look ShinShinto, and I cant find any Kiyomitsu from the Shinshinto period..  So I was thinking either this was a gimei signed during shinshinto, or the seller is just plainly incorrect. 

 

I think such statement would be based on the blade acitivity rather than signature alone.

One thing I appreciate with active seller's listing is having a link to it. 

I understand many are afraid someone else will snatch the offer but it seldom happens and it saves a lot of time. Koyama Munetsugu has a distinctive style quite different from Kiyomitsu, despite the latter being unusually broad in his own output.

[Baba Yaga]

Ah, the plot thickens. The "treasure hunt" with it vague discerptions based on obscure theory. Vegas wasn't built on winners.      

[AdamH]

Rivkin, you are actually right.  I was being cautious in the case this could spark additional interest.  

See link to the sellers page.  She also confirmed that she believed it to be a later smith copying a muromachi blade, signature/date and all. 

 

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A070922.html

[Ken-Hawaii]

Nice tanto, Adam, & probably worth the $1,199 that the seller is asking. But are you buying the blade, or Mr. Sato's "guarantee" (which is what those papers are)?

[Kanenaga]

I'm probably naive, but I find this quite remarkable -- to be able to "age" the nakago so convincingly, and recreate a Muromachi-style signature?  Scary.

[AdamH]

42 minutes ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

Nice tanto, Adam, & probably worth the $1,199 that the seller is asking. But are you buying the blade, or Mr. Sato's "guarantee" (which is what those papers are)?

I really do like the blade, and this potentially brings on another question.  These Bizen copies from Koyama Munetsugu,  are they interpreted as gimei or honest attribution honoring the original smiths?  Does the latter hold significant more value compared to the former?

 

[AdamH]

4 minutes ago, Kanenaga said:

I'm probably naive, but I find this quite remarkable -- to be able to "age" the nakago so convincingly, and recreate a Muromachi-style signature?  Scary.

That is what I was thinking... Could a misjudgement have been made?  The nakago looks muromachi, and/or shinto, but I would be fooled if you told me shinshinto.

[Rivkin]

Well, this would be reasonably expensive if it papered by NBTHK, so my guess it failed NBTHK and maybe NTHK then marked it as gimei but added an opinion that it's Munetsugu and Kurashiki paper was the last resort.

But its actually very convincing - Kiyomitsu did work in this style and I am not surprised if it was actually submitted to all three papers.

There are things that do not look like Kiyomitsu - jigane is off (which was probably the main factor in the judgement), there is no bo utsuri...

Kiyomitsu tanto often have itame, but its very well grained somewhat larger and ji nie is much brighter, it comes out a lot even when photographed from above. He also did some more coarse-Muromachi typical jigane, but usually on daito.

This jigane is too dense and bleak.

I don't want to check the books but the signature-nakago looks impressive.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Adam you are dreaming if you think that the Japanese dealer has got this one wrong and that you are smart enough to pick the diamond in the rough . The dealer will probably have forgotten more than you know, so it makes no sense pitting your knowledge against theirs . They are really being upfront saying that the piece is a later copy.

Ian Brooks

[Bugyotsuji]

Definitely sounds like the dealer has done the rounds and got the opinions. If it's who I think they are, they also have a board of experts who sit and make decisions. He will have all his bases covered, just to be on the safe side. Nice blade, piece of history, won't break the bank, and do you like a challenge?

[Baba Yaga]

7 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Adam you are dreaming if you think that the Japanese dealer has got this one wrong and that you are smart enough to pick the diamond in the rough . The dealer will probably have forgotten more than you know, so it makes no sense pitting your knowledge against theirs . They are really being upfront saying that the piece is a later copy.

Ian Brooks

 

You're absolutely correct BUT - Do you see a pattern in judgement, I do. I've seen this very scenario play out for decades. It's the hand that's always burnt by the flame, rules and consequences. 

[sabiji]

Well, I consider Tsukada Shiho-san to be experienced.
I think the reference "to a swordsmith from the line of Koyama Munetsugu" is aimed at a Kuwana-Bizen "utsushi". 
Family members of Munetsugu also forged in Kuwana. To me, Touken Komachi's assessment sounds plausible.

[Jacques D.]

On 4/3/2023 at 10:44 PM, Kanenaga said:

I'm probably naive, but I find this quite remarkable -- to be able to "age" the nakago so convincingly, and recreate a Muromachi-style signature?  Scary.

To really realize this, you have to have the blade in your hands. I will not repeat what I have said very often.

[Baba Yaga]

"I'm probably naive, but I find this quite remarkable -- to be able to "age" the nakago so convincingly, and recreate a Muromachi-style signature?  Scary."

 

Once in hand a few easy processes can be done.

 

Harsh chemicals are used when "Monkeying" a Nakago. Some try to hide the harsh chemical smell with Choji oil. 

Some use a blend of shoe polish that's transferable. 

 

I wouldn't recommend this procedure!  I know of a advanced collector who used to lick Nakago and Tsuba. While this was a sure thing transferable procedures are safe and best done. 

 

The first is naivete followed by confusion, anger and depression. Some people just don't want to know and that's OK. 

[John C]

3 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

Once in hand a few easy processes can be done

Agreed. As an example, this art piece I did for a wood project was simply silver foil treated with a potash solution and left in the sun. A simple salt and vinegar solution can age copper pretty quickly in the sun.

John C.

[AdamH]

Very interesting article from Markus Sesko regarding this subject, and even mentions Koyama Munetsugu.   Key line in the article that answers some of my questions.

 

Munetsugu made a 1:1 copy of the then condition of the meibutsu, and interesting this time, he also copied the signature of the original 1:1 and signed himself on the back of the tang (see picture 1 right). Please note that this does not come under the category of gimei as the smith added his name at least somewhere on the tang. But even if Munetsugu had not added his name on the back of the tang we would not see this blade as gimei. 

 

https://markussesko.com/2015/09/19/copies-homages-and-reinterpretations/

[Katsujinken]

On 4/4/2023 at 10:59 AM, sabiji said:

Well, I consider Tsukada Shiho-san to be experienced.
I think the reference "to a swordsmith from the line of Koyama Munetsugu" is aimed at a Kuwana-Bizen "utsushi". 
Family members of Munetsugu also forged in Kuwana. To me, Touken Komachi's assessment sounds plausible.

Right. Is this not a kuwana uchi?

[sabiji]

5 hours ago, Katsujinken said:

Right. Is this not a kuwana uchi?

Well, at least Shiho-san seems to point in that direction.
The Kaji Cho in Kuwana was known as the source of bizen-gimei. It doesn't have to have been Koyama family smiths, there are plenty of other swordsmiths. Kuwana was considered a place to study the Bizen style.
Here is an example of a Hatakeda copy attributed to Koyama Munehira.

http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2012/12128-2.jpg

[Baba Yaga]

17 hours ago, John C said:

Agreed. As an example, this art piece I did for a wood project was simply silver foil treated with a potash solution and left in the sun. A simple salt and vinegar solution can age copper pretty quickly in the sun.

John C.

 

This is some interesting information which for some reason is overlooked. Fred Lohman used to offer a service for Gimei removal and repatina. I always thought Nihonto would be a great market for that service considering the over ABUNDENCE  of Gimei. I've seen the mei removed and a small part of the patina left. Looked like poor workmanship to me.  

[Alex A]

Reading some of this, cant help thinking there is too much focus on the mei and not enough the sword 

 

There's that much variation in Muromachi Kiyomitsu, suskesada etc etc mei, personally don't get why folk spend so much time focusing on it.

 

You find papered examples that look nothing like anything in books. 

 

Blades out there with later added signatures to the correct smith, some obviously get papered.

 

No way of knowing whether signed by a shaky apprentice at the time or later mei forger on a mumei, some of the time this hobby can be pure nonsense.

 

blade characteristics, then mei. (with more leeway for the likes of Sue Bizen)

 

 

 

 

 

[drbvac]

I know with Gimei blades that I have the signature is usually the thing that is suspicious but as hard as that is to fake, the characteristics of the smith in the forging and hamon are just as hard to do as well. Even a blatant gimei signature is often on a very well done blade especially for more well known smiths.  I have a gimei Tadayoshi that the two character signature is not in line with the age of the sword BUT it is still a pretty impressive piece of work. You can't put a Mercedes logo on a Hyundai and sell it as such to many people - well maybe a couple.