Who was ToyoSuke?

[Jcstroud]

24 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

John

Do you have a photo that includes all the stamped numbers, painted numbers, and Roman numerals together?

We can do this.....

[Jcstroud]

Here you go.... @BANGBANGSAN

will send others pronto...

[Jcstroud]

34 tsuba...

[Jcstroud]

#45 tsuba very faint but there

[Jcstroud]

Blades side by side....

[Jcstroud]

One more....

[Jcstroud]

Hope they are good enough if you wish more be glad to oblige.

[Jcstroud]

Saya #34 and #45...

[Jcstroud]

Some of the differences I have noticed is #45 has cast heavier fuchi and koiguchi . #34  has embossed lighter weight

Fuchi and koiguchi it is my belief that #45 was made before #34  because it is heavier overall.the stamped numbers on 34 are smaller as well.....

[Jcstroud]

For those who have 

Inquiring minds...

Saki kasane

#34 =.232 inches

#45 =.240 inches

Saki haba

#34 =.907  at yakote

#45 =.874  "               "

Motokane

#34 =.334 inches

#45 =.322  inches

Motohaba

#34 =1.264 in. At habaki

#45 =1.244 in. At habaki

[Jcstroud]

So far we have found the following  Toyosuke swords in the following countries:

33 us washington state

34 Virginia us

36 France

45 Puerto Rico

56 Australia

65 Poland 

68 Poland 

78 Poland

??  Japan

??  Russia

??  Austria

??  England

?? California Us

[BANGBANGSAN]

12 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Here you go.... @BANGBANGSAN

will send others pronto...

 

 

Thanks John!

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

I have noticed is #45 has cast heavier fuchi and koiguch

That could mean the 45 was from one of the first production runs, and the 34 came later in one of the many repeat series.

[Jcstroud]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

On 10/2/2023 at 12:29 PM, Jcstroud said:

and koiguch

That could mean the 45 was from one of the first production runs, and the 34 came later in one of the many repeat series.

Better photo to clarify differences

 

[John C]

Which one is the #45? The bottom one? It looks to have higher quality fittings and a lacquered ito wrap.

 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

14 minutes ago, John C said:

Which one is the #45? The bottom one?

Yes the bottom one

dont know if it is lacquer  or hand oils was lacquered ito the norm?😁

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, could’ve been an actual war surplus. The lighter weight stuff was likely made after the war specifically for the souvenir.

[Jcstroud]

56 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Yes, could’ve been an actual war surplus

Another comparison #45 still has remnants of brown paint on the kabutogane #34 has no trace of pre-existing paint.

[Shuko]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:04 AM, Jcstroud said:

So far we have found the following  Toyosuke swords in the following countries:

33 us washington state

34 Virginia us

36 France

45 Puerto Rico

56 Australia

65 Poland 

68 Poland 

78 Poland

??  Japan

??  Russia

??  Austria

??  England

?? California Us

 

We need a worldwide sword count

Can't be many left in Japan

[Jcstroud]

Would like to take a moment to thank Matt of Sohei Swords for making this comparison possible...nice blade nice people aka  @mdiddy

[Jcstroud]

Thankyou @vajo for this picture of Toyosuke #68 care of @Bruce Penningtoncould you tell me where you found it that is what country? I would be very greatful .

John S.

[Jcstroud]

On 10/2/2023 at 4:04 PM, Jcstroud said:

So far we have found the following  Toyosuke swords in the following countries:

#33 us washington state

34 Virginia us

36 France

45 Puerto Rico

56 Australia

65 Poland 

67 Russia

68 ??

78 Poland

??  Japan

??  Austria

??  England

?? California Us

List updated and corrected

[Jcstroud]

On 10/3/2023 at 8:57 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

On 10/2/2023 at 12:29 PM, Jcstroud said:

and koiguch

That could mean the 45 was from one of the first production runs, and the 34 came later in one of the many repeat series.

Finally with the help of you all have discovered the meaning of the tsuka symbols they are the 4th and 5th hiragana symbols in the iroha song order and on #34  the "he" symbol I believe is the 34th symbol in the same order does that mean it is sword #3434 more study is needed but certainly appears to be a breakthrough in deciphering the meanings of these tsuka symbols!!!

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm trying to catch up with this.  The chart above is a HIRAGANA chart.  They are a different way to write the same sounds of the KATAKANA chart.  Based on the orientation to read the "34", the kana above them looks more like a katakana "FU" than a hiragna "HE" in my eyes.  FU is vertical - フ - while "HE" is horizontal - へ .

[Jcstroud]

There is a likely possibility that some shops used one and others the other in the instance of #45 the 4th and fifth positions on the above chart are an exact match which is exactly what I was looking to find.now we are seeing the different possibilities.....cool!!!

[Jcstroud]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:41 AM, Jcstroud said:

Finally with the help of you all have discovered the meaning of the tsuka symbols they are the 4th and 5th hiragana symbols in the iroha song order and on #34  the "he" symbol I believe is the 34th symbol in the same order does that mean it is sword #3434 

A correction to this assumption ...if the position on the hiragana chart were being used as series number prefix that would make Toyosuke #34  sword #2934 of 8747 keep in mind that this is at this time a theory needing to be proven. But indeed a possibility....and the search for who was Toyosuke continues......😁

[John C]

6 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

keep in mind that this is at this time a theory needing to be proven.

Theories are proven OR disproven. Search for evidence and let that guide you. Just in general, many investigators run into trouble trying to "find" evidence that proves their theory. Remember too, that disproving and eliminating a theory is just as important, since you would no longer waste time researching it. 

IMHO,

John C.

[Jcstroud]

12 minutes ago, John C said:

6 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

keep in mind that this is at this time a theory needing to be proven.

Theories are proven OR disproven. Search for evidence and let that guide you. 

Agreed will require more examples of willing participants to acquire 

Proofs to this theory .in respect to #45 there is no doubt in my mind at all. But that does not negate the fact that multiple numbering systems were in use during and after the war.Very interesting in deed

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a nice Toyosuke in kaigunto combat fittings on this ebay sale.  Unfortunately, the seller cuts off the end where any painted numbers would be.  But again, support for the fact he was an active smith during WWII, not a fictional name for souvenirs.

 

[SteveM]

This one is a Takeyasu 武泰, not Toyosuke.