Who was ToyoSuke?

[Jcstroud]

22 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

At this stage you may as well compare Moe, Larry and Curly to that guy.....

Yeah kind of running out of leads at this point,but not giving up yet.....oh by the way what does PNS stand for ? Pianist?

[Kiipu]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:20 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Here is #34

 

And more pictures can be seen below.

*EXCELLENT* WWII Japanese Samurai Sword KAI GUNTO Shin Gunto World War 2 KATANA

[Jcstroud]

Interesting the nakago length on Toyosuke #34 and #45 are just shy of 9 inches or 226 mm very consistent in appearance,koshirai. Only difference is #34 has a 1 piece army style fuchi, and #45 has 2 seppa with a navy style fuchi. Posted #33 and 34 to compare to #45

 

[Jcstroud]

Adding #46 thanks to  Morita-san

[Bruce Pennington]

Probably a typo, but that is “56“. Do you have a link to the rest of the photos, are there more photos? Looking for the type of fittings and a look at the style of nakago jiri.  Also, the size of the anchor stamp.

 

Edit: disregard, I have that one in the chart posted by MarkC. It’s a blade only.  Of course, I am working on my phone and do not have the other photos. If this is a duplicate, and not posted by MarcC let me know.

[Jcstroud]

Your probably right I havent learned how to count yet.! At least in Japanese. 

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Your probably right I havent learned how to count yet.! At least in Japanese. 

Don’t be hard on yourself, it only took me 8 years!

[Jcstroud]

On 9/17/2023 at 9:42 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

this is a duplicate, and not posted by MarcC let me know.

Yes it was posted by @markcthanks Bruce

[Jcstroud]

Here we have the first time in 78 years two Toyosuke Swords are in the same place at the same time for comparison first compared total weights #34 @45.45 oz.

#45 @45.25 oz.

[Bruce Pennington]

54 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

#45 @45.25 oz.

Cool, John!  Noticeably different shapes.  Hey, from the photos available, I haven't been able to tell if the kabutogane on #45 is smooth all over or has textured bumps/dimpling.  Can you check for me?

[Jcstroud]

Sure no problem....they both look the same  as the Masanao  kabutogane

[Jcstroud]

34 seems to have the Takayama to shape the kissaki is thick also over 6mm 5.3 being spec.both swords have kissaki thicknesses of over 6mm traits of  the 2nd design late war Takayama to

[Jcstroud]

Brothers in arms: a Reunion !

[Conway S]

Very cool that you have two now! I wondered if you were going to go for the one Thomas posted.... and now I know.

 

Conway

[Jcstroud]

Too hard to pass up too hard to find.could not believe how close they are in weight.  .20 ounces ! That is the weight of two u.s. dimes!

[Jcstroud]

see now, the section you mentioned. We can see that they used the Takayama Forge blades at the school. It also shows that they were bought for active use by the Navy and Army. So, widely used, to include the school.  

Hey @Bruce Pennington

Just occured to me a possible explaination of the correlation of the swordsmith names to the intended recipients:could it be that Toyosuke blades were intended for army cadets at Toyama and Takeyasu blades were intended for Takayama naval cadets ?and both have the same crosshatch file pattern and small 4mm anchor stamp,and suriage nakago.now this is mere conjecture I know.hmmm

[Bruce Pennington]

Theories can give us something to investigate.  Just got to dig around for evidence!

[Jcstroud]

12 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Theories can give us something to investigate.  Just got to dig around for evidence!

I dont mind digging but I aint no Tombraider. 😁

[Jcstroud]

A correction to my previous post Toyosuke #45 has the bare blade weight of 812 grams and#34 has the bare blade weight of 802 grams or 1.79 lbs. Versus 1.76 lbs also thought I would add a couple of interesting photos

[Bruce Pennington]

Hm. Roman numerals on the habaki. Wonder if this could’ve been a war surplus blade. Trying to remember if I’ve seen Roman numerals on any of the postwar souvenirs.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Hm. Roman numerals on the habaki. Wonder if this could’ve been a war surplus blade. Trying to remember if I’ve seen Roman numerals on any of the postwar souvenirs.

#34 and 45  both have like numbered habaki,saya,koiguchi,fuchi,tsuba, and tsuka all matching numbers.

[John C]

Additional info:

All of the parts on my #66 are marked; the habaki with roman numerals and the tsuka with Japanese numbers.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, John C said:

All of the parts on my #66 are marked; the habaki with roman numerals and the tsuka with Japanese numbers.

Very likely originated from seki then finished at Tenshozan Tanrenjo imo 

[Jcstroud]

Finally have found the legendary "Toyosuke"

[Jcstroud]

Initial comparisons:

#34  25 inches habaki to tip  or 63.5cm

#45  24.8125  habaki to tip or 63.023 cm

#34 assembled weight less saya =37.45 oz.or

2 pounds 5.45 oz.

#45 assembled weight

less saya =37.85 oz. or

2 pounds 5.85 oz.

This seems to show them to be short and overweight as compared to RJT specs even with the shortened nakago.

Hmmmm seems  the IJN had different specs especially Takayama blades.Could these be from there?

 

[Jcstroud]

Iwas curious to know what the measurements were of the sword Takayama Masakichi used using the photos was able to estimate a sword of 2.1 shaku based on the nakago length of 1 shaku of course it is an estimate but interesting none the less. 😁

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, you got me curious about the Roman numeral markings and I checked my souvenir, which is painted 50.  Sure enough:

 

 

Don't know why, but I did not expect the post-war operation to use the style.  Makes sense, though.  If they really want to mark ALL the parts with matching numbers, then the Roman marks are the best way to mark a habaki.

[Jcstroud]

48 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Don't know why, but I did not expect

Look at the stamps #5 looks like the same hmmm.

[Jcstroud]

Seems to confirm that the koshirai  of both were done at Tenshozan Tanrenjo now the blade sources very likely Seki but not yet verified.....It is now my belief that Toyosuke was a swordsmith at the Takayama forge based on all the info and comparisons thus far....

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:17 AM, Jcstroud said:

#34 and 45  both have like numbered habaki,saya,koiguchi,fuchi,tsuba, and tsuka all matching numbers.

John

Do you have a photo that includes all the stamped numbers, painted numbers, and Roman numerals together?