Who was ToyoSuke?

[Bruce Pennington]

Thomas, @Kiipu, might shed some light on these spec pages.  Maybe they'll include a weight requirement.  Found on Nick Komiya's page on the Launch Documentation of the 1937 Navy Gunto

 

I'll check his discussion of the Type 94.  I believe I have read a weight requirement somewhere.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is a spec page for the 94, found Here, Reviving the Samurai Sword design, 1934.

 

Rinji Seishiki applicable regs

[Bruce Pennington]

I think the only spec on this is length, but posting it just in case.  It's the announcement asking for civil blades to be donated.  They reduced the acceptable length to 21.5", which allows waki's into service. Found on Nick's article on Family Short Blades as Gunto

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I wondered if the weights I had read in the past were from the RJT program.  Here's a post by @cabowen from his RJT Manufacturing Specifications thread.

 

small:2.0〜2.1尺　　731.25〜768.75 grams

medium:2.1〜2.2尺　　768.75〜806.25 grams　

large:2.2〜2.3尺　　806.25〜843.75 grams

[Jcstroud]

  On 8/7/2023 at 2:13 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

I wondered if the weights I had read in the past were from the RJT program.  Here's a post by @cabowen from his RJT Manufacturing Specifications thread.

 

small:2.0〜2.1尺　　731.25〜768.75 grams

medium:2.1〜2.2尺　　768.75〜806.25 grams　

large:2.2〜2.3尺　　806.25〜843.75 grams

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Wow,Bruce what a wealth of information ! 

Have done some measurement conversions and here are the results

2.0 shaku =60.60cm

2.1 shaku =63.63cm

2.2shaku=66.66cm

2.3shaku=69.69cm

Toyosuke came in at:

Length of blade or nagasa =63.18cm 

With the weight of 812gm putting it at short side of specs length Wise and heavier in respect to weight.

Following are the regulation nakago lengths converted to metric:

Rinji seishiki 7 sun 1 bu =242.4mm

Rikugun jumei

tosho 7 sun=217.4mm

1940 naval kaigunto=206mm

Takayama To = ????

Hope this helps . Stay tuned more to come.!😁

Edited August 7, 2023 by Jcstroud
Correction

[Jcstroud]

Some interesting name connections or coincidences:Toyosuke Oda had a son named Masahiro Oda,brother named Isamu Oda possibly named after Nakata Isamu Kanehide.

Nakata Isamu Kanehide

Had a son named Minomoto Masanao. aka Nakata Katsuro ,his uncle was Matsubara Shozo a Toyokawa swordsmith aka Inaba Kaneyoshi brother of 

Kanehide  students of Watanabe Kanenaga in Seki. Ishihara Masanao of Takayama forge and Ishihara Kanenao of Takayama forge is likely the same swordsmith using masa for navy swords and Kane for army swords "RJT". Now you might ask what do all these have in common? Takayama forge. Oh well I will stop my endless conjecture and continue the search

for who was Toyosuke.........Thank you all for your kindness,patience and support for this study and who knows maybe one day we will know for sure.but I think we are getting close.!!!!!

J.C.Stroud

[Bruce Pennington]

Give it some time! You never know when the next lead will pop up. Could be a couple of years down the road, but if you’re watching, you’ll find something.

[Jcstroud]

  On 8/5/2023 at 2:21 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Thomas, @Kiipu, might shed some light on these spec pages.  Maybe they'll include a weight requirement.  Found on Nick Komiya's page on the Launch Documentation of the 1937 Navy Gunto

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On the bottom of Nick Komiya,s post you will find another named 

"Ideal geometry for cutting perfomance"

From October  1939

Written by the Imperial Japanese Naval Technology Research Institute in this report these swords are called 

Bujin-to or literally Warrior Sword. I think you find it interesting....

Check it out!

John S.

P.S. these swords were a result of the Naval landing forces complaints about the army guntos,the new navy swords called by them Rikusen-to

Or a land battle sword. So they are indeed NLF swords.

Also explains the mixed army/navy fittings

[Kiipu]

  On 4/4/2023 at 5:35 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Do you have more photos of this one?

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For the rest of us, here you go.

WWII Signed Japanese Navy Officer “Takayama Sword” Shin Gunto

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/27/2023 at 6:47 PM, Kiipu said:

For the rest of us, here you go.

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That's an interesting one.  Note the filled second, original hole in the nakago:

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

Here's an example of a wartime kaigunto make by Toyosuke.  Posted by Don Sshlickman on this Gunboards Thread.  We've seen a couple of these, if memory serves me, so I don't think the name was made up for the souvenir contract.  Like you suggest, it could be an alternate name for another smith, but I doubt it was simply a souvenir fake name.

[Kiipu]

  On 8/28/2023 at 4:17 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Here's an example of a wartime kaigunto make by Toyosuke.

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Takeyasu 武泰.  I have yet to see a wartime made Toyosuke 豊佐.

[Jcstroud]

Maybe we should ask  @SteveMhis opinion on this kanji I dont know what to make of this one,seems quite different. Or @Kiipu.

[Jcstroud]

  On 8/28/2023 at 5:05 PM, Kiipu said:

Takeyasu 武泰.  I have yet to see a wartime made Toyosuke 豊佐.

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Notice the same crosshatch filepattern?

Interesting comparison...T y s k?

[SteveM]

The one in Bruce's post is Takeyasu-saku (武泰作）

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/28/2023 at 5:05 PM, Kiipu said:

 

Takeyasu 武泰.  I have yet to see a wartime made Toyosuke 豊佐.

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I need an emoji for “Dang!”

 

Thanks guys, i’ll go correct myself over on gunboards.

[Jcstroud]

  On 8/29/2023 at 1:25 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Takeyasu 武泰.  I have yet to see a wartime made Toyosuke 豊佐.

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There was a post by Mac the whopper that had a shingunto Toyosuke in combat saya #33 if my memory is correct I will search for It.

[Jcstroud]

Was wondering ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is it.

 

[Jcstroud]

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, I'd forgotten I had that one on file.  I have it in the souvenir chart, simply because I don't have a better place for it.

[Jcstroud]

In retrospect I have my doubts about this one the mune machi appears back cut.

[Bruce Pennington]

The ito and same’ look new, while the leather saya cover is quit weathered.  It could be a souvenir blade that someone has piece together a scabbard and handle. On the other hand, it could have been a really weatherbeaten sword with a destroyed handle, and someone has had the tsuka re-wrapped.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Bruce Pennington

[Jcstroud]

Toyosuke Oda in 1954

[John C]

JC:

I'm not sure this is your guy.

The Toyosuke Oda posted above was in Brazil as of 1929 living with his family. He went back to Japan (via Los Angeles) in 1941 to stay with his uncle then back to Brazil by 1954, where he died in 2000. On his immigration records and passport he is listed as a farmer. 

I suppose he could have worked as a swordsmith at the end of the war if his uncle was one, but it seems unlikely. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

I agree it is unlikely but not impossible.if you look at the names of his children:  Masahiro Oda ,Mieko Oda, brother Isamu Oda, it makes it seem more possible.I am hoping that someone may recognise him to verify if it is the same person or not.....

[John C]

If Toyosuke does have a strong Brazilian connection, you may find this article of interest. It talks about 3 well-known swordsmiths who lived in Brazil.

https://to-ken.uk/onewebmedia/Japanese in Brazil Nihonto 01 02 2017 v1.pdf

 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

  On 9/10/2023 at 7:32 PM, John C said:

you may find this article of interest. It talks about 3 well-known swordsmiths who lived in Brazil.

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Interesting reading John  

Thank you I apreciate your help. Iwonder if Oda Kunihiro was related?

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 4/10/2023 at 12:44 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks John.  That makes 7 I have on file now.

 

Painted numbers:

8

33

45

65

68

81

No paint

No paint

 

And an editorial note - is that Type 98 associated with these?  Seems out of place.

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Bruce

Here is #34

 

[Jcstroud]

  On 9/12/2023 at 4:20 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Bruce

Here is #34

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Where did you find this one?

Check out this comparison: the first photo is Oura Yoshisuke aka Sukemune.   The second as seen prior is Toyosuke Oda ....hmmm

[PNSSHOGUN]

At this stage you may as well compare Moe, Larry and Curly to that guy.....