Who was ToyoSuke?

[Jcstroud]

8 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Not really, as these factories would have someone just doing the Mei at the end. 

Surely a person of your expertise would consider these well established facts rather than relying on mere conjecture.

(1.)It is clearly a "souvenir sword" produced and sold by Tenshozan Tanrenjo .

(2.)Tenshozan before the wars end were producing 10 swords a month by contract with the IJN These swords clearly had a different mei cutter.

(3.)Zenhiro Hattori had a well established sword collection network working with the IJN during the war and clearly used the same after the wars end.

Proven by the numbers from December19 1945 to April 12th,1946 Tenshozan  aka the Japanese Naval Sword Company delivered the first 2650 swords to the US ARMY TOKYO PX.

This clearly shows they were outsourcing .Kamakura did not have the capacity.

(4.)The mei of Toyosuke in my opinion combined with the small 4mm fishhook barbed circled anchor stamp indicates Seki area sourcing.these combined with tsuka markings indicate Inaba shrine origin.imho.

[Jcstroud]

Ok got an idea lets call them:  TOYOSACO-TO' 😊

[Jcstroud]

After much research this is what I have found: Inaba Kanetoshi was a student of Watanabe Kanenaga as was his younger brother Matsubara Shozo they both used the swordname Inaba according to Malcolm Cox's pdf.Matsubara Shozo was Kaigun Jumei Tosho making swords for Toyokawa his brother an rjt smith for the IJA .his last  address was kisogawa-cho haguri-gun in aichi-ken which is close to inaba-cho.! he also used the same filemark pattern as his teacher Watanabe Kanenaga it is a possibility that he also signed as Toyosuke.

[Jcstroud]

Well the search continues....If anyone wishes to help I would be glad to recieve any help I can get to find out more about who was Toyosuke very thankful for all the help so far.

 

John

[Jcstroud]

Found this Toyosuke in a NMB post dated april,18,2011 titled Something strange about Naval gunto?

 The contruction is consistent with the others poor seppa though .Looks like#81 but I am not sure.   Oh well the search continues.....

 

[Bruce Pennington]

NIce find, John!  Yes, looks like originally it was "58", but that was cleaned off, and "81" added.   Note the nicer than unusual sword bag.

 

Oh, and that's another duplicate number.  Previous 81 is a Takayama-to, with associated inscription:

[Jcstroud]

Ok now I am really going out on a limb on this one: found a Toyokawa swordsmith by the name of Takeyasu if you exchange the a's for o's and then change the order phonetically you get To Yo Su Ke  yeah I know its a stretch but I am grasping at straws here . Searching for who was Toyosuke. One interesting note about this theory is that the two have identicle higaki yasurime! Aka crosshatch diamond pattern like Watanabe Kanenaga ! Understandable if I were making swords for a U.S. ARMY Contract I too would change my name so I would not bring shame to my family.logical.and decent.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

I too would change my name so I would not bring shame to my family

This might have been mentioned before, but it was pointed out (maybe by NIck Komiya) that some smiths did exactly that.  They were under contract with the Army or Navy but would put out swords under another name to sell to private shops and buyers.  So, this is a possibility.  

[Jcstroud]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:41 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

They were under contract with the Army or Navy but would put out swords under another name to sell to private shops and buyers.  So, this is a possibility.  

Hey, Bruce just a thought if a swordsmith signed Toyosuke and the blade has the Toyokawa armory stamp would that not mean he was a helper at or for Toyokawa. One would think that they were made during the war.because you cannot help it if it is not there.seems unlikely the swordsmith would sign them as such after the fact.lending creedance to the surplus blade usage theory.Thoughts?

[Jcstroud]

Recent find: Toyosuke Oda born October 12,1914-Mar year 2000 had son named Masahiro Oda born 1953 -2019 

Had brother named Isamu Oda 1928-1996

Same as Nakata Isamu Kanehide aka Inaba! Coincidence? Married in Fukuoka in 1949.  From Same town as  Takayama Masakichi could this be the same Toyo suke? I dont know.

Thoughts? Anybody know?.......

[Jcstroud]

Could this be him?

[Jcstroud]

On 6/17/2023 at 11:13 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Oh, and that's another duplicate number.  Previous 81 is a Takayama-to, with associated inscription:

Hey Bruce or anyone have a measurement of an uncut Takayama- To nakago?  Or any other measurements for comparison purposes? As I would like to study them more.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Hopefully someone will help.  I'm still helping with my daughter's move, and will likely be away from home for a few more days.  I have one, and will post a measurement when I get home, though.

[Kiipu]

Below is the 1940 IJN drawing for the low carbon nickel-chrome blade.  It will be interesting to compare the measurements between the two.

 

[Jcstroud]

Ok here we go I measured Toyosuke #45 and took measurements using a Starrett dial calipers in inches where possible:blade length is

24-13/16 inches

Nakago length is 8-7/8 inches or 226mm

Unsharpened portion of blade in front of habaki is 4-7/16  inches or11 mm

Mune is .326 inches or 8mm + .011 inches

Tsuba thickness is .149 thick

Sori is .422 inches or 10.5 mm +-

Habaki length is .960 inches

Nakago width at tbe large end is .736 inches 

And the small end width is.202 inches

Saya length is 27-3/4  inches long

Total length is33.5 inches .....now lets see how they compare.....ps 

Ha machi to mune machi is1.088 inches  or slightly more than

27.5 mm 

Blade at widest point is 1.237 inches exact.

width at yokote is .847 inches......yokote to the tip is 40 mm

Tsuka length is 10 inches

 

 

 

 

[Jcstroud]

3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Below is the 1940 drawing for the low carbon nickel-chrome blade.  It will be interesting to compare the measurements between the two.

Hey kiipu do you have a clearer diagram ? An oh by the way Thankyou for the assistance we could never do this alone Thank you. 

John Stroud.

 

Oh silly me forgot to tap,tap tap to enlarge

Edited July 31, 2023 by Jcstroud
Error

[John C]

There are probably some allowances for dimensional variation, but does the drawing mention weight standards? This is in reference to "Processing Swords for Officers", (however the direction may have been the same for kai gunto blades):

4.  The dimensional shape was allowed to differ slightly from the standard dimensions, but the weight was strict. (Article 1, Paragraph 10) 

 

Did you happen to weigh the Takayama-to? Just curious.

John C.

 

[Jcstroud]

12 minutes ago, John C said:

Did you happen to weigh the Takayama-to? Just curious.

Hey John C ,.no dont have scale will have to go to the smoke shop and see if they have a 1000 gram scale.........That will give me a project for tomorrow!!!!!I.   I love retirement.😁

[Jcstroud]

Differences found after comparison to the 1940 sword specs supplied by @Kiipu 

Total sword length is 854.075 mm compared to 900 mm spec

Nakago length is 226 mm as compared to 206 spec. Longer by 20 mm

Mune-machi to  mekugi-ana  is 73mm as compared to 60 mm spec.

Habaki length is24.5 .But the observed distance from mekugi-ana to end of habaki is  a sum of 24.5mm+73mm =97.5 mm as compared to the 60/40 spec a difference of 2.5mm

Nakago appears to have been shortened by the distance of 3.25 inches or 87mm using the estimated original length of 12.325 inches or313.055mm   estimated. Hope this will help others who are  curious about these so called souvenir swords. So far the evidence points to these swords being at earliest March 1945 manufacture to postwar manufacture. No later than March 1947.

So stay tiuned in for the next episode of the adventures of who?.........Toyosuke san.😁

[Jcstroud]

16 hours ago, John C said:

Did you happen to weigh the Takayama-to? Just curious.

John C.

Hey John C. Got me a 2000 gram scale and here are the results :

Total weight of sword ,saya all in all is 45.25 ounces or 1282.816 grams or 2.828 lbs.

Blade weight alone is 28.65 ounces or 812.213 grams.  Or 1.790 lbs. FYI 

Please tell me how this compares to IJN Specs and or Takayama-To specs I would be very greatful if you have those specifications !

P.S. the scale I used is from Tanita Corporation a Japanese company. 😁

John Stroud

[Jcstroud]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:53 AM, Kiipu said:

It will be interesting to compare the measurements between the two

Hey Thomas have a question the symbols in the circles can you tell me what they mean.?

Thanks John S.

[Bruce Pennington]

They are numbers and katakana. Simply references for each cross-section located where the line crosses the nakago.

[Kiipu]

As Bruce explained above.  The encircled katakana characters read from right to left and are in iroha order.

 

FYI, the drawing is of the blade only with no habaki.  Your confusing a cross-section reference point for a habaki.

The overall length is 906 mm, blade length is 700 mm, and nakago length is 206 mm.

[John C]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Please tell me how this compares to IJN Specs and or Takayama-To specs

I don't have this information. But I can tell you my standard souvenir blade weighs 769 grams; about 43 grams less than yours. It would be interesting for others with souvenir swords to weigh their blades so we could determine if there are any patterns between those (unsigned, clipped, souvenirs) and those that are signed. This may help in determining if certain blades were left over stock or produced post-war.

John C. 

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

The overall length is 906 mm, blade length is 700 mm, and nakago length is 206 mm.

Then would I be correct in saying it is within specs in your opinion ? I am more into engines and transmissions than swords or at least was at one time.We all value your  and Bruces views

 Because of your vast combined knowledge base  thank you.

John S.     P.S.I will go back and recheck ......I got it ,Got it! Thanks for the corrections.

 

[Jcstroud]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:53 AM, Kiipu said:

Below is the 1940 IJN drawing for the low carbon nickel-chrome blade.  It will be interesting to compare the measurements between the two.

 

I went back and measured the Toyosuke blade at the precise points in Iroha order and this is the results

(1) 6.32mmx2.232cm

(2) 6.80mmx2.684cm

(3) 7.62mmx3.129cm

(4) 8.22mmx3.129cm

(5) 8.12mmx 2.545cm

(6) 5.58mmx 1.905cm

Thickness x width 

Here you go Kiipu hope this will satisfy your curiousity and others as well hopefully it will help verify their place of origin and tosho......

Sori=10.5mm

Blade end to end=

85.40cm

Blade weight= 813 grams

Nakago=226mm

[Jcstroud]

Figured I would go 1 step farther to show the measurements vs. The 1940 IJN specs .the results are following

First blade width

22.3mm vs.24.8 spec

26.8mm vs.27.2 spec

31.2mm vs. 32.3 spec

31.2mm vs. 33.6 spec

25.4mm vs. 27.0 spec

19.0mm vs.21.5 spec

Now blade thickness

Compared to specifications

6.32mm vs. 5.3mm spec

6.80mm vs.5.5mm spec

7.62mm vs 7.5 mm spec

8.22mm vs. 8.0mm spec

8.12mm vs. 8.0mm spec

5.58mm vs. 5.5mm spec

Blade end to end 85.4cm

Nakago22.6cm vs.20.6

Spec.

These measurements are in aroha order according to specs starting at the kissaki.

[John C]

What is interesting is the consistency. Your blade is skinnier in all respects but thicker in all respects. Again, makes me wonder if the weight would be nearly the same.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

6 hours ago, John C said:

What is interesting is the consistency. Your blade is skinnier in all respects but thicker in all respects. Again, makes me wonder if the weight would be nearly the same.

John C.

Hey John you dont happen to know what the spec weight should be do you? Any one?

[John C]

No, I don't. Just the notation that the weight tolerances seemed to be more important in the production than the size specs. 

John C.