Newly acquired sword, and I'm a bit of a newbie.

[RunaTuna]

Hello,

I recently won an auction for two Japanese swords. One is a kyu guntō the authenticity of which I have already verified. However this 2nd sword I am not able to find any information on, as it has no markings on it. I only bid the value of the kyu-gunto, so this one was just a bit of a bonus. I normally collect milsurp firearms, bayonets, and other militaria, so I was hoping this might be a shin guntō. I had someone tell me it has Muromachi era patina and that the  shape is characteristic of Bizen (kurijiri nakago) which was one of two major sword producing sites in the civil war. But honestly that sounds too good to be true. Was hoping to get some more opinions. Also, the hilt is missing so any ideas of how I would replace it in the even it IS authentic would also be appreciated. 

[Fuuten]

Welcome, 

 

From the picture here it is hard to say anything except, I'm leaning towards real though quite the abuse victim. 

 

To me it looks a little like suriage - shortened from sugata or overall shape. But the nagako doesn't look like it, more Edo period. 

 

Better photos and close up on the handle and kissaki - tip of the sword, dimensions etc, are necessary. 

 

Others will chime in shortly. Also, please sign with atleast your first name👍

[RunaTuna]

15 minutes ago, Fuuten said:

Welcome, 

 

From the picture here it is hard to say anything except, I'm leaning towards real though quite the abuse victim. 

 

To me it looks a little like suriage - shortened from sugata or overall shape. But the nagako doesn't look like it, more Edo period. 

 

Better photos and close up on the handle and kissaki - tip of the sword, dimensions etc, are necessary. 

 

Others will chime in shortly. Also, please sign with atleast your first name👍

Sorry about that. Here is some more pics to the best of my ability. The blade is about 20.5 inches (52 cm) long. I guess I just want to make sure it's not some mall ninja junk haha. If it is any sort of real Japanese antique I will be happy. 

[Fuuten]

Hello Alec,

 

Sadly it looks less like a real Japanese swords from the new photos (to me anyway). Starting with the undefined shape, the lack of a well defined shinogi - ridge line, destroyed point to the habaki and weird looking rust on the tang. I'm afraid it looks like a fake. However since you only valued the lot on the other piece I suppose you didn't lose anything.

[RunaTuna]

46 minutes ago, Fuuten said:

Hello Alec,

 

Sadly it looks less like a real Japanese swords from the new photos (to me anyway). Starting with the undefined shape, the lack of a well defined shinogi - ridge line, destroyed point to the habaki and weird looking rust on the tang. I'm afraid it looks like a fake. However since you only valued the lot on the other piece I suppose you didn't lose anything.

Ah, that sucks. Thanks for the help. At least I still have my other Japanese blades. 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Alec,

For what it's worth, I think this is a real Nihonto that has seen abuse. The kissaki has been reshaped, most likely because the tip was broken. The nakago does look Bizen so late Muromachi Bizen may be right.

Grey

[Brian]

What Grey said.

[Matsunoki]

This isn’t a fake! It’s had a hard life but it’s old and genuine. From these images it’s ubu at the nakago end…..not sure about the kissaki end.

[RunaTuna]

15 hours ago, Grey Doffin said:

Hi Alec,

For what it's worth, I think this is a real Nihonto that has seen abuse. The kissaki has been reshaped, most likely because the tip was broken. The nakago does look Bizen so late Muromachi Bizen may be right.

Grey

 

11 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

This isn’t a fake! It’s had a hard life but it’s old and genuine. From these images it’s ubu at the nakago end…..not sure about the kissaki end.

Well hot diggity dog, that's really cool! Now to find someone who can restore it. I'm not giving it to Bubba the amateur blacksmith, I need someone who knows what they're doing. 

[rematron]

Hi @RunaTuna, I like your enthusiasm. If you haven’t already checked out the FAQ section of the website, it’s definitely worthwhile and educational. This particular excerpt below discusses what you are thinking about and is recommended reading. Cheers. 
 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/faq.html

 

From NMB FAQ:

I'm new to Japanese swords and I want to get my 1st sword polished and/or have koshirae made for it. 
 

Slow down Grasshopper. Pretty much every new collector wants to do this. But it is not always a good idea. A polish isn't necessary to preserve your sword; as long as any active red rust is stabilized, your sword will be just fine in its old polish with proper maintenance. Sharpening = polishing and polishing removes steel from the blade and too many polishes remove enough steel that the blade's core steel starts to show through, a serious and ugly defect. Beginners often don't know how to properly care for a blade in polish. A new polish is easily scratched or even rust spotted and before you know it, the blade needs a polish again. Old scabbards can contain grit that can scratch a newly polished sword, or talking over a blade can lead to tiny droplets of moisture on the blade which turn into rust spots very fast. 
Beginners often make the mistake of having their sword polished by an improperly trained polisher, which can irreparably damage the sword. Also,remember that not all swords are worthy of a polish: retempered, tired (core steel showing), and badly defected swords will not be worth the cost of polish. Low to mediocre grade swords are often worth less than the cost of polish. There are many periods in Japanese history where swords were produced as fast as possible, with less care about aesthetics and more thought about producing functional weapons. It is a fact that age doesn't necessarily mean value. In these cases your money would be better spent on a more worthy sword (or books). Learning to distinguish between mass produced utilitarian blades and those worthy of polishing is a huge part of your studies, and this is where the advice of knowledgeable collectors is invaluable. Spending $2500 on a polish for a sword that will be worth $1500 afterwards only makes sense if the sword has sentimental value. Otherwise, the money is better spent on upgrading. Having koshirae (mounts) made for a sword is also a common desire of new collectors. While this will do no damage to the sword if done by a professional, it can put a serious dent in your wallet. When the time comes to sell (and it will, unless you plan to be buried with your sword) you will be lucky to recoup half of what you invest in koshirae. Other collectors want original "Samurai" koshirae, not something you put together. Rather than jumping in with polish and/or koshirae, you would be smart to take your time to study and learn. With experience you will be able to make informed decisions and spend your money more wisely. Also, your tastes will change. A few years from now you'll be glad you don't have way too much invested in something you want to sell. 
•Who should I have polish my sword and how much can I expect to spend? In the west, especially in the United States, there are many polishers to choose from. I can count on one hand the number of polishers outside of Japan who have proper training. A poorly done polish can do significant damage to a sword, both artistically and monetarily. Put another way, the most expensive polish is often the one that costs the least. We can not over stress this point: Don't give your sword to an amateur polisher. 
•How do you know if a polisher has proper training? Ask experienced collectors (here on NMB, for example) who they'd recommend. If the polisher lives outside of Japan and he advertises his services on ebay or someplace similar, you don't necessarily want him to touch your sword; the true polishers have more than enough work without advertising. 
•What will this cost? Prices vary with the condition of the sword to be polished but a good rue of thumb is $100-120 per inch of cutting edge. You will also need shira-saya (plain wooden mounts) and possibly a new habaki. You won't be putting a newly polished blade back in its old mounts because the polish can be scratched by any grit that found its way inside the saya over the centuries. Shira-saya can cost a few hundred dollars and habaki, if necessary, at least $200 more. This isn't inexpensive, which is why you need to make sure your sword is worth the expense. A properly trained polisher will be glad to look at your sword and give you good advice.
•How do I know if my sword is worthy of a polish? If you have been advised by knowledgeable collectors or other experts that your sword might possibly be worth restoring, one way to find out for sure that doesn't cost an arm and a leg is to have a professional polisher open a "window" on your blade. This is a small area of the sword that is polished to see the actual workmanship, hada, hamon and hataraki and see if the blade exhibits quality workmanship. Most polishers will do a window or at least look at your blade and give you advice. The other way is to find a sword study group or sword show near you and get the advice of as many advanced collectors as possible. Online opinions are at the bottom of the reliability scale, as there is only a limited amount that can be determined from pictures, but if from advanced collectors, is better than no advice at all. The key is to ask, ask, ask...before doing. Then take some more time and think it over before you make up your mind.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by rematron
Add link to faq

[RunaTuna]

@rematron Thanks for the heads up. I don't necessarily need a fancy display or to have the blade looking brand new. I also don't need it super sharp or anything, not like I'm going into battle with it haha. Just a new hilt and scabbard and cleaning up the blade to not look so rusty. One smith someone recommended to me is David Hofhine, but I know nothing about this, so I would definitely appreciate advice anyone here can give before I do anything. I definitely want to make sure if I do get it cleaned up, it is by a true professional. And like the FAQ said, this may have just been a mass produced weapon and might not be worth having a full restoration done. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of Nihonto experts in the Nashville area from my research. If anyone else from around here can chime in that would be awesome. 

[ChrisW]

Finding a collector's club (Token Kai) would be your best bet to hook up with fellow collectors. If you'll tell us what region of the country you're in, we can probably point you to one!

If you're in the Midwest, might I humbly suggest the Indiana Token Kai? I know there's also clubs on the east and west coasts as well. The Chicago Sword Show is also coming up. This show would be ideal for you to meet a TON of collectors and see more swords than you could imagine being in one room!

[RunaTuna]

33 minutes ago, ChrisW said:

Finding a collector's club (Token Kai) would be your best bet to hook up with fellow collectors. If you'll tell us what region of the country you're in, we can probably point you to one!

If you're in the Midwest, might I humbly suggest the Indiana Token Kai? I know there's also clubs on the east and west coasts as well. The Chicago Sword Show is also coming up. This show would be ideal for you to meet a TON of collectors and see more swords than you could imagine being in one room!

I am in Nashville, Tennessee. Chicago or Indiana would be a bit of a drive lol. There is a Kendo club here, maybe they might have connections who can help? I know they never use real swords or anything but the ones who run it are from Japan and they surely must have an interest in real swords and know some people. 

[ChrisW]

As far as I know, the ITK is closest to you for a group dedicated to study of nihonto. We meet in Morgan County, which is in the central part of the state about 30 minutes south of Indianapolis. Though our next meeting will be informal and held at the Chicago Sword Show at the end of this month. Believe me when I say the show is definitely worth seeing if you have any interest in learning more about nihonto! You'll be seeing both traditionally-made swords and WWII era blades.

[RunaTuna]

9 hours ago, ChrisW said:

As far as I know, the ITK is closest to you for a group dedicated to study of nihonto. We meet in Morgan County, which is in the central part of the state about 30 minutes south of Indianapolis. Though our next meeting will be informal and held at the Chicago Sword Show at the end of this month. Believe me when I say the show is definitely worth seeing if you have any interest in learning more about nihonto! You'll be seeing both traditionally-made swords and WWII era blades.

Ah, dang was hoping for something closer. Thanks for the help though!

[Fuuten]

On 4/2/2023 at 2:50 AM, Fuuten said:

Sadly it looks less like a real Japanese swords from the new photos (to me anyway). 

Disclaimer. I could, should've prefaced it by saying I'd probably be wrong.

 

For the record: absolutely fallible 😄

Edited April 10, 2023 by Fuuten
Awkward choice of words

[RunaTuna]

So, I reached out to David Hofhine about getting the blade restored. He confirmed the sword's authenticity. He guessed Koto period (pre-1600). He said however, his services to restore it would cost more than the blade is actually worth. He said it's about a 500$ sword and he charges 70$ per inch of blade for his cheapest polish. He does not recommend other people's work (of course not, he doesn't want to lose business). And that doesn't even take into account what it will cost to replace the hilt and sheath. So I'm kind of back to square one. Surely there must be someone who is in the middle between "Expensive 30+ years experience sword master" and "Bubba the cheap amateur blacksmith".

[rematron]

 

14 minutes ago, RunaTuna said:

Surely there must be someone who is in the middle between "Expensive 30+ years experience sword master" and "Bubba the cheap amateur blacksmith".

The person who fits this description would be considered an amateur polisher and amateur polishing is largely frowned upon in the nihonto world.  

[RunaTuna]

3 minutes ago, rematron said:

 

The person who fits this description would be considered an amateur polisher and amateur polishing is largely frowned upon in the nihonto world.  

So really, there's no way to restore this other than spending way more than what it's worth? 

[rematron]

No.  Nihonto is extremely specialized.  This isn't an old bowie knife.  It's a 400+ year sword made before there was electricity.  The geometry of the blade must be maintained and that in itself takes an immense amount of knowledge, skill, time and concentration.  Polishing must be done by hand.  There are no chemicals or electric grinders involved.  Those methods are fast and destructive.  There is no such thing as a quick "cleaning of the blade" and one could look at sharpness as a byproduct of the polishing process.  Polishing removes material and the angle at which it is removed on both sides will naturally produce an edge.  There's no way around it.  This is why it is recommended that people read a lot and purchase books before swords. 

 

However, people spend more money than "what it's worth" on things all the time.  What is it worth to you?  Sentimental value is real.  

[RunaTuna]

9 minutes ago, rematron said:

No.  Nihonto is extremely specialized.  This isn't an old bowie knife.  It's a 400+ year sword made before there was electricity.  The geometry of the blade must be maintained and that in itself takes an immense amount of knowledge, skill, time and concentration.  Polishing must be done by hand.  There are no chemicals or electric grinders involved.  Those methods are fast and destructive.  There is no such thing as a quick "cleaning of the blade" and one could look at sharpness as a byproduct of the polishing process.  Polishing removes material and the angle at which it is removed on both sides will naturally produce an edge.  There's no way around it.  This is why it is recommended that people read a lot and purchase books before swords. 

 

However, people spend more money than "what it's worth" on things all the time.  What is it worth to you?  Sentimental value is real.  

To me it is worth spending the money to restore it, I just wish I didn't have to haha. If that makes sense. I'll probably just have to forget any vacation plans I had this year and put a pause on my antique gun collecting for a while in order to save up for the restoration. 

[John C]

8 minutes ago, RunaTuna said:

To me it is worth spending the money to restore it

There is always the option to have a "window" polished into a good area just to see what the sword would look like if restored. It's much less expensive than a full polish and can let you enjoy the details of the blade.

John C.

[RunaTuna]

2 minutes ago, John C said:

There is always the option to have a "window" polished into a good area just to see what the sword would look like if restored. It's much less expensive than a full polish and can let you enjoy the details of the blade.

John C.

I have heard of that, but having one good patch and the rest looking old would be uneven annoy me to no end and I would eventually end up paying to have the full blade done just to satisfy my OCD 

[rematron]

I'm in a similar situation, Alec.  I have a sword roughly the same age as yours that I go back and forth on whether or not I want to have it polished.  While I would love to see it polished, I have an internal battle going on.  Do I want to spend $2,000+ restoring my katana (which has a hamon type that I'm not super crazy about) or do I want to put that $2.000 towards a different sword that's already in polish and has features that I enjoy?  

[RunaTuna]

18 minutes ago, rematron said:

I'm in a similar situation, Alec.  I have a sword roughly the same age as yours that I go back and forth on whether or not I want to have it polished.  While I would love to see it polished, I have an internal battle going on.  Do I want to spend $2,000+ restoring my katana (which has a hamon type that I'm not super crazy about) or do I want to put that $2.000 towards a different sword that's already in polish and has features that I enjoy?  

I feel that. I really just wanted a WWII sword (not just the parade sword, I had hoped it was a shin-gunto). But considering this sword came WITH the parade sword, it was probably an heirloom sword someone took with them into WWII (as it was common for Japanese soldiers to do this), and a GI brought home after the Japanese disarmament. So the sword is doubly cool to me now. 

[John C]

1 hour ago, RunaTuna said:

probably an heirloom sword someone took with them into WWII

Possibly. But as noted in the document below from the late Nick Komiya, even donated swords had to have a blade at least 21.5 inches long. So I think the jury may still be out as to whether or not this was carried in WW2.

John C.

 

On 4/1/2023 at 5:24 PM, RunaTuna said:

The blade is about 20.5 inches (52 cm) long

 

[RunaTuna]

2 minutes ago, John C said:

Possibly. But as noted in the document below from the late Nick Komiya, even donated swords had to have a blade at least 21.5 inches long. So I think the jury may still be out as to whether or not this was carried in WW2.

John C.

 

 

Huh, interesting, the more you know. I figured with the shape it's in, it had to have spent time in a hot, humid, salty aired place like the Philippines for a while haha.