Instructions for people wanting opinions

[Jacques D.]

The measurements correspond to what was done at one time, the experts of this forum should find it easily.

[Baba Yaga]

2 hours ago, Alex A said:

Could maybe just add a link  http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/measure.htm

 I tell people the same. But people are people and want to know everything without learning. 

[Baba Yaga]

3 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

The measurements correspond to what was done at one time, the experts of this forum should find it easily.

 

I get your point. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. 

[rematron]

@b.hennick I like this. Why ask for everything up front when the first simple photo or two will show that it’s not worth going forward. So perhaps still have ‘stock replies’ but different levels of them. Good stuff. Thank you. 

[Mark S.]

57 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

The measurements correspond to what was done at one time, the experts of this forum should find it easily.

Tell you what… repost this in its own thread instead of being an albatross and crapping all over this thread.  Then I will politely explain to you what other photos I need to assist with ID instead of being a tool and dismissing you out of hand.  Then I will do my best to give you an OPINION without being a tool to you or anyone else on this board who gives their OPINION and tries to help.  All skills you completely lack and/or are just too much of a $&@$@! to share.  Get it???

 

If you don’t, then you just continue to prove you are a silly, unserious person who is here for completely different reasons than 99% of us.  Honestly, I have never been able to figure out what you offer or what you get out of all this… but that’s on you.  As my Mother (90 years and still going strong) always says, “Be a help, not a hinderance”, which was always a warning to her sons that we better get our $h!t straightened out… 

[Guest Simon R]

I think that this is a truly wonderful idea!

 

One other potential point to make, if I may?

I've noticed a recent trend where an initial "Is this real or fake?" enquiry frequently morphs into "How much can I sell it for? immediately upon receiving the former opinion - regardless of condition, likely gimei etc, etc. (Somewhat like a shark sniffing blood.)

Therefore, I strongly suggest that the opening of the thread - giving the rules of submission - makes it very clear that no financial estimates will be given, as we are not an insurance appraiser nor an auction house.

 

Keep up the excellent work!

 

Simon

[Alex A]

Its a shame folk wishing to help out others have to put up with the resident troll.

 

 

 

[Guest Simon R]

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Edited March 20, 2023 by SRDRowson
In retrospect, perhaps one joke too far.

[Rivkin]

I have to admit the measurements are seldom exciting to me, but having a dedicated shot of the boshi and the nakago is usually a must.

As is the overall shot from above and at least something on the activity. 

Since statistically pretty much 95% of what is seen are average blades from Tembun Muromachi, Kambun Shinto or Showa this can be sufficient.

[rematron]

Here is the first draft of 'STEP 1' (minus the photo examples).  Your constructive criticism is welcome and encouraged.  The key word here is "CONSTRUCTIVE".  Thank you.

 

STEP 1

 

Hello and welcome to Nihonto Message Board!  So, you would like more information about your sword.  This forum is full of wonderful and knowledgeable people that can help you. 

 

Firstly, it is important to say that the opinions you will receive on this forum are educated with a combined experience of hundreds of years.  But these opinions are not to be taken as fact.  Also note that photographs can only convey so much.  And if it is warranted, conclusive information will require your sword to actually be held in hand by one or more experts.  Additionally, if your sword has a signature, the NMB are not expert enough to state categorically whether or not it is genuine.  That would also require being evaluated in hand by one or more experts.

 

Secondly, the opinions you get in this process will be for neither the purpose of establishing a monetary value for your sword nor as a platform in which to sell it.  This will be purely for the education of yourself as well as the members following your post. 

 

Thirdly, for the sake of simplicity, these instructions will be mostly using English terminology.  The Japanese terminology is wonderfully descriptive and specific and the forum encourages you to learn it; especially if you continue to educate yourself about nihonto following your inquiry about your sword.

 

Lastly, we will require clear photos and accurate measurements for us to give you the best opinions that we can. 

 

We will do this evaluation in 4 steps (give or take).

STEP 1: We will simply determine whether or not your blade is Japanese.  If it's not, we'll stop right there.

STEP 2: We know it's Japanese but want to speculate on its history.

STEP 3: We look for problems and give advice on next steps to be taken.

STEP 4: We take a look at the sword furnishings: handle, guard, sheath, etc.

 

So, let’s get started!

 

In the first step of this process, we simply want to see if your sword is in fact Japanese. 

 

Things we need:

1) We need you to be careful.  Japanese swords are notoriously sharp even if they are out of polish.

2) We need the length of the edge of the blade.  Please measure from the tip of the blade to where the edge ends at the tang.  Please see the photo below on how to measure.

3) We need to see a few photos.  When taking photos, please lay your sword on a soft surface to avoid damaging it.  Please see the examples of exactly what we are looking for below.  Your photos should be cropped and oriented in order to look as much like the examples as possible.  Please remove all furnishings from your sword so that we only see the bare blade and tang.  If you need help figuring out how to do this, there are plenty of youtube videos and articles.  In your browser search “remove mekugi”.  Sometimes the collar between the blade and the tang is difficult to remove.  Do not force it.  In this first step, the collar can remain unless it’s easy to remove.  If you can remove it, please do so.

 

Once you have the measurement and photos ready, please post them in this thread and wait for the replies.  It will be apparent whether or not we will proceed to the next step of evaluation.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by rematron
update edited draft

[Matsunoki]

Looks good to me. While he has the tape measure out we might as well ask for the true Nagasa as well as the overall length?. He can then be told if he has a Katana vs Wak etc? 

[rematron]

@Matsunoki Thank you.  I'm on the fence.  While it seems like only one more measurement, it also complicates the process and isn't really necessary for the 1st step of just simply seeing whether or not the blade is Japanese.  Again, streamlining the process.  One more step is one more step and one more instruction to read.  They all add up.  That's my thinking anyways.  The second step would be where the real measurements come in and the person would need to bust out their measuring tape again anyways.

[Baba Yaga]

18 hours ago, Mark S. said:

If you don’t, then you just continue to prove you are a silly, unserious person who is here for completely different reasons than 99% of us.  Honestly, I have never been able to figure out what you offer or what you get out of all this… but that’s on you.  As my Mother (90 years and still going strong) always says, “Be a help, not a hinderance”, which was always a warning to her sons that we better get our $h!t straightened out… 

 

Some people have lost all empathy when it comes to poor judgement. In the Art World there is enough poor judgement to go around. You're a crook if not blunt and a jerk if you tell someone the baby is ugly. It's a no win situation. Some of us have seen people buy a lot of high priced junk from very well known dealers, the list is long. When a bunch of us learned what Koch bought and from who, we were all horrified. Not one person said anything and everyone plays nice.  

[rematron]

Edits I can think of after staring at this a few times:

 

1) Gonna steal a quote from @b.hennick : "We also from the start state that we are not expert enough to state categorically that the signature, if present, is genuine. We leave that to shinsa teams". I will word it slightly different.

2) I misread another of @b.hennick suggestions and will ask for the blade length only (not the overall length)

3) I will add a short sentence advising the person to place the blade on a soft surface etc.

4) Add a statement that the photos and measurements are required for our ability to speculate.

 

The above changes have been implemented into the original draft I posted.

Edited March 20, 2023 by rematron
update to draft

[Shuko]

Perhaps three dot points in the Step 1 introduction summarising what step1, step 2 & step 3 are.

[rematron]

@ShukoYeah that’s probably a good idea. Thought about it too. The beginning response is already a little more wordy than I wanted but I guess it can’t be helped. A few more sentences to summarize the steps would be prudent to explain why the steps. Will do. 👍🏻 

 

Edit: These edits have been added to the original post of the draft.  Thanks everyone for your continued input.

Edited March 21, 2023 by rematron
update

[DoTanuki yokai]

Maybe just make a short YouTube video, 5mins that the people should watch when they are new because it will be much better to understand in my Opinion. 
I was already planning to make some videos for the German speaking Nihonto interested because I can not stand the bullshit videos that German dealers make about Nihonto and their 300% profit margin selling blades from Aoi  

[rematron]

@DoTanuki yokai, while I think your idea is valid, that is a completely new direction I won’t take on. You’re welcome to make a video. I look at this like a cure for hiccups. Everyone has their own idea of what works and different things work for different people. And sometimes something will work for that person but they won’t try it because they like the idea of another way better. I will continue my idea of written instructions and photos. The forum has room for more than one way to do things. 
 

cheers

[rematron]

On 3/20/2023 at 4:56 AM, Rivkin said:

I have to admit the measurements are seldom exciting to me, but having a dedicated shot of the boshi and the nakago is usually a must.

As is the overall shot from above and at least something on the activity. 

Since statistically pretty much 95% of what is seen are average blades from Tembun Muromachi, Kambun Shinto or Showa this can be sufficient.

I'm tending to agree.  This process is starting to be more lengthy and less likely to be followed by the average attention span.  So, the whole point of making simple instructions is being lost.  I'm going to go back to a more basic approach.  I think one set of instructions and photo examples will be good for the vast majority of what we get.  Follow-up questions and answers can be case by case.  Really what we want is a good start with quality photos and a couple measurements.  It won't be the end of the world if the person takes a bunch of pictures of a blade that turns out to be non-Japanese.  Those pictures will be good reference on the forum for people to learn how to distinguish non-Japanese or fake blades from real nihonto.  I'll work on a complete draft and post it here when it's ready.  Then we can build from there.

[Matsunoki]

6 minutes ago, rematron said:

I'm going to go back to a more basic approach. 

Jeremy, I agree!

[rematron]

Follow-up opinion:  If I'm an average Joe wanting to know more about my sword, I'm only gonna want set up for a photo shoot, disassemble my sword, and take photos one time.  If I get great news after that, I might be more inclined to take some more.

[Shuko]

Don't forget if the newbie has a genuine Japanese blade that after Stage 1 assessment comments, an appropriate NMB person should invite the newbie to Stage 2 for a more detailed assessment if the blade warrants it. 

[rematron]

10 minutes ago, Shuko said:

Don't forget if the newbie has a genuine Japanese blade that after Stage 1 assessment comments, an appropriate NMB person should invite the newbie to Stage 2 for a more detailed assessment if the blade warrants it. 

Yeah, I've decided not to follow that suggestion of multiple steps just yet.  I'm taking a different, more direct route that is much less scholarly and I think more appropriate for people that want some quick answers which is most often the case.  They'll need to provide a few more pictures up front but will only have one photo shoot.  We'll get all the information we need for a jump start.  My experience on the forum thus far has told me that the biggest problem we have with these requests is bad photos from the start.  Once there are good specific photos, the information rolls in.  So, I'd like to experiment with the 'express' method first and we'll see how it goes.  I feel like the step method will be too long and drawn out, which in turn will invite clutter of the thread due to member back-and-forth and members jumping the gun on speculation.

[ROKUJURO]

Jeremy,

I find it necessary to mention that photos of the NAKAGO should always be shown vertically (tip upwards), whether signed or not. NAKAGO end should be visible as well as HABAKI area (if possible without HABAKI).

All photos should be nicely focused and taken on a plain/uni-colour background, if possible a dark one.

[rematron]

@ROKUJURO, yes like the photo examples I posted at the beginning of this thread.