Instructions for people wanting opinions

[rematron]

At least once a week a new person will post low quality photos of a sword and want some opinions about it. A lot of these posts are ignored until someone decides to go through the whole explanation process of what kind of photos the forum needs in order to best evaluate the sword. It would be nice to have set instructions that we could cut and paste into threads like these or perhaps an instruction page that we could point the person towards. Just a suggestion. I think we touched on this before but perhaps this thread could be used to come up with a solid set of instructions. 

[Shuko]

Yes, this would be a very helpful guide for a newbie like me and others who join this year.

 

As Jeremy pointed out, it would save the knowledge experts a bit of time too.

[rematron]

Looks like there’s interest in this. I’m happy to volunteer to compile suggestions into one comprehensive yet simple (hopefully) set of instructions for people. I will start creating drafts here for members to critique. Does anyone remember the thread from a few weeks ago where this process was brought up and suggestions were added? I’m pretty sure there’s enough information there for me to at least form a draft. If not, I’m also sure we all have plenty of practice and can start fresh here. 😀

[Brian]

I can use the "Stock replies" feature for this. The little lightning bolt that you can use to post sale items or anything that needs a stock reply. If someone drafts up a brief reply, I can add it to the list, so you just click that and click "Photos" and it will add the text I allocated to that.
Can use it for multiple other stock replies if anyone wants to draft up any for certain circumnstances.

[Alex A]

Don't forget measurements.

 

Saying that though, have noticed when you ask folk for measurements they suddenly disappear

 

Ok by them for folk on here to mess about for an hour trying to help them out though, sigh. 

[rematron]

Measurements, yes vital.

 

 Yeah, it’s not always going to work flawless and members and guests will of course be free to approach inquiries old school style but it will be nice to have something to put in one post on the thread so it doesn’t turn into a back-and-forth 2 pages long of members asking for certain information. 

[Jacques D.]

How many times does it have to be said that trying to evaluate a sword without having it in hand is only an illusion, and that it is harmful for the owner of the sword who is most of the time directed on a wrong road.

[Alex A]

Only a rough guide Jacques, its not a shinsa

 

Just to give folk some direction

[Alex A]

Ps, for someone that makes that kind of statement

 

 

I do wonder why you often get so involved in such experiences lol

[rematron]

As I’ve told you before @Jacques D., infinity times. You like infinity right? That’s how many times. People are gonna ask and people are gonna speculate and give opinions (including you so so so many times regardless of statements like you say above) and the best way to deal with the questions are to have specific guidelines for people to follow so we can get straight to that instead of wading through tons of crappy photos. 

[Mark S.]

6 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

How many times does it have to be said that trying to evaluate a sword without having it in hand is only an illusion, and that it is harmful for the owner of the sword who is most of the time directed on a wrong road.

You participate on an ON-LINE platform and then complain people use that ON-LINE platform to ask questions or give advice ON-LINE.  Try to get this straight… IT IS WHAT IT IS AND IT IS WHAT WE HAVE.  We understand that and we accept it.  If you can’t, don’t or won’t, then you have choices.  
 

We have heard your concern ad nauseam, and just because we ignore you doesn’t mean we don’t get it.  We understand it, but don’t accept it or agree, you are given permission to stop.  We will continue on.  And stop with the ‘harmful’ over exaggeration.  No one is being harmed, the earth isn’t spinning off its axis, light and dark matter aren’t coming into contact, and the universe is not out of balance… well at least not because of a few ON-LINE opinions.  Please just stop… you are becoming a caricature.

[Mark S.]

5 hours ago, rematron said:

…including you so so so many times regardless of statements like you say above) 

You would think giving endless gimei opinions without a blade in hand on an ON-LINE platform would be “harmful”… 

[Alex A]

For the most part, forums are a godsend for those with little knowledge of what they have. As said before, whatever info that folk receive is FREE.

 

Usually, with something decent the answer is always send it to Shinsa.

 

I still use forums myself when i need to and I'm so grateful to the folk that take the time to reply. When researching to learn something i often find that the most useful information is found in old discussions on forums. Discussions involving experienced collectors/hobbyists, stuff you will only find in the most obscure books (if your lucky). 

 

The only gripe i have is sometimes folk can come across as ungrateful, especially when they don't like what they hear. Sometimes not even a thanks.

 

If ever i use a forum and ask questions, i contribute a small donation towards the upkeep. 

 

Personally, think anyone that uses forums on a regular basis and does not contribute, is a tight ass. (meant with a laugh)

[Guest Simon R]

1 minute ago, Alex A said:

The only gripe i have is sometimes folk can come across as ungrateful, especially when they don't like what they hear. Sometimes not even a thanks.

Ah, the dear, (and thankfully) departed Ferry from the Netherlands springs immediately to mind.

[Jacques D.]

5 hours ago, Mark S. said:

You would think giving endless gimei opinions without a blade in hand on an ON-LINE platform would be “harmful”… 

 

You should know that identifying a gimei and judging a blade are two totally different things and not comparable. A mei is usually well readable on pictures but not a hada or a nioiguchi with all that they can contain.

 

[Guest Simon R]

[drbvac]

It is amazing as well how well intentioned, good ideas that could help the reality of on-line forums get hijcked with all sorts of inane back and forth comments. If you can't add a comment to HELP all participants keep your UNHELPFUL comments to yourself. This is meant to a learning and positive experience within the circumstances we have. At least we do not ask for high resolution scans of blades to determine they were made in China.

[rematron]

Moving forward… 

 

Photographs: I’ll take my own average quality photos of this wakizashi once I receive it. In the meantime I’ve cropped the ones available to me to what I believe to be the four ideal types photos we would like to see.  My view is that we would want to keep the process and photos down to a minimum. Thoughts?

 

edit: the photos didn’t upload in the order I intended. Ideally the SORI photo would be first. 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by rematron
Explanation

[Matsunoki]

17 minutes ago, rematron said:

Thoughts?

Jeremy, I can see this as being very  helpful to those who are new to our Forum/topic. The suggested photos are a good start. Not sure how this will eventually appear on the Forum (pinned thread?) but I think we should maybe consider avoiding  using all the “official” terminologies ie stuff like nakago, kissaki, sori, machi etc etc.  Instead use tang, tip, curve, notches etc …maybe with the actual term in brackets afterwards. A newbie would be totally confused if faced with a multitude of words that mean nothing to them initially. Heck I still get confused. I’ve seen some replies to enthusiastic newcomers that are frankly ridiculously ill considered regarding the terminology used. 

Maybe add a generic image of the mountings as well……that can often give hints about the blade?

….just a few musings.

All the best. Colin

[rematron]

@Matsunoki thank you.  I completely agree. I was thinking of using typical English terminology for the sword parts with the Japanese terminology in parenthesis. As far as how it will look, I really like @Brian’s idea of using the ‘stock replies’ feature he mentioned. And members can add more stock replies for different scenarios such as tosogu. I’m thinking the stock reply will come up as a post within the thread with the four ideal photo examples and a short explanation of the whys as well as a request for specific measurements. I will use a photo to specify the measurements needed from where to where - again using English terminology. 
 

1) overall length

2) length of edge

3) width of blade at start of edge by hilt

4) width of blade right behind curve of tip

 

That’s my thinking anyways. 

 

Thoughts?
 

 

[Matsunoki]

7 minutes ago, rematron said:

Thoughts?

I’ve seen (can’t remember where[as usual]) a diagram showing what /how to measure a blade. That might be simpler and clearer than trying to explain it in text?

[rematron]

Right. My idea is to use a photo diagram with corresponding numbered instructions. If there is an existing one I can use with permission that would be great if someone can find it. Otherwise I’ll attempt to create one. 
 

Something like this but much much better. 😅

 

[Matsunoki]

Yep….that’s the idea.

[Michaelr]

Ok Jeremy first let me say that I think that you have a great idea and thank you Brian for all your help as always in pinning something that makes things better and easier for all.

  Now just my two cents: Maybe this could be pinned in three sections, Nihonto section, Translation section and Military section, Maybe titled something like “ Looking for help with my ( your ) sword” Onced opened it would come up with, “Are you looking for help with a sword? Please follow the guidelines below to make it easier for others to help you”:

 Take the best, clearest pictures of the whole sword, the blade and the Nakago ( tang) that you can

 Use a neutral color background for your pictures like black or gray

 When photographing the Nakago for date or smith information always do so with the point of the blade facing up

 Crop your pictures as we are not interested in your feet, shoes or pets, just your blade

 Try to get a couple good clear pictures of the Hamon along the blade edge

 Include measurements of your blade. Measure from the tip along a straight line to the Mune-Machi, which is the notch on the top of the blade   that begins the Nakago 

 Measure the Nakago from this same notch to the end

 You may also include measurements of the width of the blade, top to bottom and thickness, side to side

 Take a picture of your blade with a long straight edge resting on the tip and the Mune-Machi which will show the Sori ( curve) of the blade

 If your blade is mounted, include pictures of the mounts

 Include any information that you may  already have or have been given on your blade

 Now remember that all of this information is best obtained with a blade in hand but everyone here will do their best to help. Remember YOU ARE ASKING FOR OPINIONS , so don’t get mad or discouraged if you don’t hear WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, sometimes the truth hurts BUT you will be getting the BEST opinions as we have a GREAT group of members and the best knowledge base out there

 Good luck

          Something like this would have helped me and still does help to remember how to make it easier for the people trying to help me as I respect them and their time

     MikeR

[Jacques D.]

Who made this blade ? Nagasa 55.5 cm, sori 1.8 cm, moto haba  3.1 cm

 

 

[Alex A]

Lol, Hizen Masahiro ?

[Alex A]

3 hours ago, rematron said:

Right. My idea is to use a photo diagram with corresponding numbered instructions. If there is an existing one I can use with permission that would be great if someone can find it. Otherwise I’ll attempt to create one. 
 

Something like this but much much better. 😅

 

Could maybe just add a link  http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/measure.htm

[rematron]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Who made this blade ? Nagasa 55.5 cm, sori 1.8 cm, moto haba  3.1 cm

 

 

Give me a #&$@ing break @Jacques D. . We’re trying to give people general information about their swords. No one is expecting NBTHK on their smart phone. You don’t like this idea? Fine. Go away, TROLL. 

[rematron]

Thank you @Michaelr. I think it needs to be a lot simpler to read but I understand your intention and will try to compromise within my first draft. 
 

As far as how this will be presented, I’m still gonna push for trying Brian’s  idea of ‘stock replies’. I think it will be the most straight forward to the person asking for opinions and will be easier for them to grasp right there rather than being redirected.
 

The idea is to make these instructions as easy as possible with tasks easy to perform and wording easy to understand. The simpler the tasks, the more likely they will be completed, which will in turn help the members of the forum get to their speculations. I believe using photos and diagrams to help explain what we are after will be easier to understand than paragraphs of instructions. 
 

Example: we don’t need to ask someone to pose their sword next to a long straight edge. They will fumble around their home looking for something to put next to their blade or they’ll put it next to the edge of a table and that’s dangerous. All we need is a flat undistorted photo taken from above. We as members can stick a credit card on our phone screen or a ruler on our monitor to check the sori. 
 

As far as furnishing goes, I’ll simply show a photo of furnishings how we would like to see them and say something to the degree of: “please take photos of your sword furnishings like this.”

 

Thank you all for your input - with the exception of the troll who believes you have to be an Olympic skier in order to enjoy going downhill on some skis. 

[b.hennick]

Here is an algorithm that is open for suggested improvements. We should explain that only with the suggested information (photos, measurements) can we get the basic information that we need. We also from the start state that we are not expert enough to state categorically that the signature, if present, is genuine. We leave that to shinsa teams.

Level 1

It seems to me that for the first level, we only need the length of the blade. We need to see the whole bare blade, the point, the temper line and the tang (both sides). Sample photos would be great. They need to know how the tang images should be oriented. They also need to know how to remove the tsuka and habaki.

If the blade is not a Chinese or other copy, more information may be needed. That takes us to level 2.

Level 2

That is where we can ask for measurements and a photo of hada. This is where a diagram of where to measure the blade. Some hada photos would also help.

Level 3

The next level could be a link to an article in kizu. Good photos would be needed. They could take photos of any suspected kizu. 

Level 4

The next level would be the fittings. Again, photos or diagrams would help.

 

Level 1 will not ask a lot and would easily allow us to point out fake swords, reproduction swords or non-Japanese swords. If the blade is in reasonable condition some information could be provided and we can then ask for measurements and more or better photos. We could probably provide some information to the person based on what we have seen.

 

Level 2  will provide more information and perhaps lead to School and perhaps era of manufacture.

 

Level 3 Kizu found may lead us to recommend not getting restoration work done, or let us say there are flaws but they are age appropriate.

 

Level 4 You rarely find high quality fittings on low quality blades. The mounts may provide specific information such as type of WWII sword even where the mounts were made.

 

All the above could lead to a summary reply with possible suggestions for sending to shinsa, getting proper restoration done, or suggesting that the piece can be enjoyed for what it is.