Is this blade worth shinsa?

[Adam001]

This is my first Nihonto and was told it was a Kazuuchimono munitions grade sword. I would really would like to know more details about it, but it seems sending it off to get evaluated will cost around $500.00. I was just wanting to ask the experts if they think it is worth it. If you dont mind please give me your opinion. Thank you for your time. 

[Rivkin]

Depends on what can be seen on the blade itself with a naked eye.

[Adam001]

9 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Depends on what can be seen on the blade itself with a naked eye.

Here is a few close up pictures of the blade. 

[SteveM]

I wouldn't invest any more on this sword. I would enjoy it as it is. Unsigned, unpolished wakizashi in general are unloved, unless they have some feature that excites collectors: vibrant hataraki or flamboyant hamon or exquisite horimono, etc. Yours doesn't have any of those that we can see. With a polish, the hamon might reveal some interesting features, but that is a $1000 or $2000 gamble that doesn't feel worthwhile.

 

Is it "kazuuchimono"? Maybe. It looks like it fits in that ballpark. Somehow I cringe at the phrase "munitions grade" . Its probably a phrase you won't hear in the nihonto collecting community. I know what you mean by it, but even kazuuchimono are handmade nihonto, and they can have some value. More importantly, they deserve to be preserved, and there is a danger of new collectors assuming they are junk swords that can then be used as practice material for a sandpaper polish, or to hack away at ivy. 

[Adam001]

Well this is my first nihonto so I intend to keep it and preserve it no matter what it is. I have always been partial to my first with all my other blades. Thank you so much for the information. 

[Adam001]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:27 PM, SteveM said:

I wouldn't invest any more on this sword. I would enjoy it as it is. Unsigned, unpolished wakizashi in general are unloved, unless they have some feature that excites collectors: vibrant hataraki or flamboyant hamon or exquisite horimono, etc. Yours doesn't have any of those that we can see. With a polish, the hamon might reveal some interesting features, but that is a $1000 or $2000 gamble that doesn't feel worthwhile.

 

Is it "kazuuchimono"? Maybe. It looks like it fits in that ballpark. Somehow I cringe at the phrase "munitions grade" . Its probably a phrase you won't hear in the nihonto collecting community. I know what you mean by it, but even kazuuchimono are handmade nihonto, and they can have some value. More importantly, they deserve to be preserved, and there is a danger of new collectors assuming they are junk swords that can then be used as practice material for a sandpaper polish, or to hack away at ivy. 

 I feel like I missing something here. Could you, or anybody in this group please elaborate on this blade for me. I understand the quality and craftsmanship does not fit the preferred collected blades of most. I do wonder why most Nihonto collectors have reserves, almost disgust when in comes to collecting this type of blade. I appreciate SteveM kind words in describing my type of blade. I had others message me directly telling me to sell it or throw it away. I understand this blade was made during a time of war. Quickly made by smiths without the experience of the craft. Of course it was during a time of war. We see this with most country's during a time of war. Even comparing a type 98 vs type 95 blades. Yet the type 95 blades are still highly collectable. A good example would be the Spanish Colonial rapier. One is made very generic in the 18th century for the soldiers and another of course more focus and quality, also from the 18th century, but both in the community would have the same respect. What is it about the kazuuchimono blades vs other well known smiths that collectors dislike so much. In my opinion they both have an importance in Japanese history. Thank you for any input you may provide. I am just trying to learn. 

[Alex A]

Hello, its impossible to elaborate from what can be seen here.

 

Look here for quality of images that make life a lot easier for folk here  https://www.aoijapan.com/

 

People should not be mailing you being negative, its ridiculous.

 

As said before, mass produced covers a large spectrum of quality.

 

The issue i have is that the nakago appears a little crude and is unsigned. There's just too many swords about of that type which are more collectable, signed blades, even dated.

 

Cant take away the fact its handmade and a real piece of history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rematron]

Hi Adam.  When a nihonto collector tells you to “enjoy it as it is” they are simply taking ‘investment versus reward’ into consideration and trying to give you the best advice.  Do you want to spend $500.00 USD for shinsa or $2,000.00 USD fixing up an average mumei blade or do you want to take that same money, maybe add a little more to it, and buy a blade that’s already polished, possibly papered, and one you can already distinctly see a hamon style that you enjoy? In the end the choice is yours and there are lots of reasons (sentimental being a large one and it’s perfectly valid) to fix up a sword that perhaps some one else wouldn’t. You’re the only person who can make that choice. They’re trying to give you perspective on how they would approach it. And their perspective and opinion is exactly what you asked for. 

However, I do agree that PMing you with straight up negativity is inconsiderate. That is unfortunate and unfortunately every public forum has people that do crap things like that. 

[Adam001]

58 minutes ago, rematron said:

Hi Adam.  When a nihonto collector tellsl you to “enjoy it as it is” they are simply taking ‘investment versus reward’ into consideration and trying to give you the best advice.  Do you want to spend $500.00 USD for shines or $2,000.00 USD fixing up an average blade or do you want to take that same money, maybe add a little more to it, and buy a blade that’s already polished, possibly papered, and one you can already distinctly see a hamon style that you enjoy? In the end the choice is yours and there are lots of reasons (sentimental being a large one) to fix up a sword that perhaps some one else wouldn’t. You’re the only person who can make that choice. They’re trying to give you perspective on how they would approach it. And their perspective and opinion is exactly what you asked for. 
 

 I understood all that. Of course it doesn't make since to to invest in my blade based on the quality and orgins. I will enjoy l my blade and wonder the History it might have had. My question here is why do some collectors consider kazuuchimono swords to be junk swords. Lets forget about the value. 

 

At this point im not talking about my sword. Just kazuuchimono in general. Lets forget about the value. 

 

SteveM said "there is a danger of new collectors assuming they are junk swords that can then be used as practice material for a sandpaper polish, or to hack away at ivy." 

 Obviously this is true because of other messages of people telling me to get rid of it or throw it in the trash. 

 

I guess I am just not seeing how any blade that is around 300 years old or older doesn't have a story to tell. To my understanding they are from Japanese Civil War time. They may have helped make Japan what it is today. How they shouldn't be preserved as an important part of history does not make any sense to me.

 

In the US we had our civil war. The officers ivory eagle pommel is just as equal to a foot soldiers Nco sword as far as history. The value is different but we would never just throw away a piece of history. 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Adam, if you have the money and are curious then why not? There is often too much focus on the financial aspects for new collectors. Try the NTHK Shinsa in Chicago coming up shortly, as it is unsigned you will get a logical attribution with a worksheet.

[rematron]

Adam, I agree. My first nihonto is a 450 year old katana bought for $500.00 USD and sold as a ‘polishing project’. I love it and probably will never have it polished or send it to shinsa. I’m confident in the sellers’ well regarded opinion and that’s good enough for me. There’s not a lot I can learn from it but I also don’t have to worry about it too much. I can keep it in its current old Edo koshirae and don’t have to baby it. I certainly would never throw it away. I’m amazed that someone told you to do that. I disagree with some member’s views that you can’t enjoy nihonto unless you own a perfectly polished sword or better yet an art sword. The history is important to me and when I hold something old in my hand, it’s condition is only one aspect of its importance and the effect that it has on my senses. There are many levels to the enjoyment of this hobby that some people have either forgotten or never managed to grasp in the first place. 

[John C]

25 minutes ago, Adam001 said:

I guess I am just not seeing how any blade that is around 300 years old or older doesn't have a story to tell.

Adam:

I think there are two separate issues. Your title referenced sending the sword to shinsa; one object of which is to determine a ranking based on the quality of the sword. As an average quality mass-produced sword, the answer would probably be no. I think this is where there may be a perceived dislike toward kizuuchimono. But if you are talking about an historical object, then by all means preserve it and study it for what it is.  

John C.

[Adam001]

6 minutes ago, John C said:

Adam:

I think there are two separate issues. Your title referenced sending the sword to shinsa; one object of which is to determine a ranking based on the quality of the sword. As an average quality mass-produced sword, the answer would probably be no. I think this is where there may be a perceived dislike toward kizuuchimono. But if you are talking about an historical object, then by all means preserve it and study it for what it is.  

John C.

I know John, I am no longer talking about my sword. I wish I could change the title. 

[Adam001]

16 minutes ago, rematron said:

Adam, I agree. My first nihonto is a 450 year old katana bought for $500.00 USD and sold as a ‘polishing project’. I love it and probably will never have it polished or send it to shinsa. I’m confident in the sellers’ well regarded opinion and that’s good enough for me. There’s not a lot I can learn from it but I also don’t have to worry about it too much. I can keep it in its current old Edo koshirae and don’t have to baby it. I certainly would never throw it away. I’m amazed that someone told you to do that. I disagree with some member’s views that you can’t enjoy nihonto unless you own a perfectly polished sword or better yet an art sword. The history is important to me and when I hold something old in my hand, it’s condition is only one aspect of its importance and the effect that it has on my senses. There are many levels to the enjoyment of this hobby that some people have either forgotten or never managed to grasp in the first place. 

Thank you rematron, that is very well put. I do believe it may be two diffrent style of hobbies. I collect for the history of an item. I research to find out as much as I can about the period and it past. I guess others may collect to have the best quality of a blade.

[John C]

3 minutes ago, Adam001 said:

I am no longer talking about my sword

I wasn't specifically either. I just think there are separate "camps" when it comes to collecting Nihonto. I have a decent Nobuyoshi from around 1690, which is papered. Since it was made in a time of relative peace, I view that sword as more of a "collectable", or study piece if you will, than anything of historical value. Conversely, I also have a type 95 that has relatively little intrinsic value. It may even have a bit of battle damage. But if that sword could talk... 

John C.

[Mark S.]

You are correct.  In all collector markets there are ‘levels’ of collecting.  Each person has to decide where they fit in.  Some will only collect and be satisfied a completely original, one of a kind Michelangelo.  Others might consider hand sketches done by Michelangelo as practice or to work out ideas for a great masterpiece to be collectible.  Others might only be able to afford other lesser known artists who worked in the same time period and style as Michelangelo.  Others can only afford limited edition prints and copies of original work.  Others tear a page out of National Geographic of a Michelangelo painting and hang it on the wall.   

[Mark S.]

So going back to your original question, is the blade worth shinsa to you?  That is all that matters.  If you ask others if it is worth it to them, you have to be ready for many to say  “no”… and that is an honest answer because it isn’t worth it to them.  

I guess in the end you have to decide if you are collecting/shinsa’ing for you or them.  By the way, I have blades that many would think are not worth a shinsa that I sent to shinsa for me… and even a couple blades I have had polished for me that others would not consider worth a polish.

[Adam001]

1 hour ago, John C said:

Conversely, I also have a type 95 that has relatively little intrinsic value. It may even have a bit of battle damage. But if that sword could talk... 

John C.

Perfect John, If that sword could talk...

 

This is exactly my point. I have many different swords from many different places and periods. IMHO there should never be a sword from history that is just considered trash, unless it is rusted from which there is no return. All blades have a history and they all should have at least some form of respect and wonder of its journey. A friend of mine once told me "We never truly own the swords that we collect. We are just curators for them."

 

Every sword we own will out last us. Its just waiting to go to its next home. Hopefully it will be preserved and respected like it was from its last.