Forestry dirk help please

[drb 1643]

Can anyone please help me with identifying this forestry dirk? I realize that it’s a senior rank but I never saw one with the paulownia/kiri mon on the blackstrap. Any information will be greatly appreciated!

Thank you all very much,

Tom

[BANGBANGSAN]

I think this has 五三桐纹 ，it should be railway dirk。

 

 

[drb 1643]

Thanks Trystan. It does have all the other features of a forestry dirk though. The railway dirks have features similar to a naval dirk. This one is a head scratcher.

Tom

[Bruce Pennington]

Tom,

Do you have a reference that shows a resemblance to the forestry dirks?  The only one I have is Fuller, and I don't see the resemblance:

 

Here is the Railway dirk, which has a kiri, but the rest of the fittings don't match:

 

The kiri is found on other organizations as well, like Royal household and Korean swords.  Fuller doesn't show a Korean dirk, so I don't know if they existed, but here is a shot of the side of one of their swords:

 

Fuller also shows a wide array of unknown civil service dirks, although one with kiri isn't in there.  I think it's more likely this one is a Korean dirk, or maybe a civil service dirk of some unknown department.

[BANGBANGSAN]

18 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Tom,

Do you have a reference that shows a resemblance to the forestry dirks?  The only one I have is Fuller, and I don't see the resemblance:

 

Here is the Railway dirk, which has a kiri, but the rest of the fittings don't match:

 

The kiri is found on other organizations as well, like Royal household and Korean swords.  Fuller doesn't show a Korean dirk, so I don't know if they existed, but here is a shot of the side of one of their swords:

 

Fuller also shows a wide array of unknown civil service dirks, although one with kiri isn't in there.  I think it's more likely this one is a Korean dirk, or maybe a civil service dirk of some unknown department.

 

14 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

I think this has 五三桐纹 ，it should be railway dirk。

 

 

@Bruce Pennington

If it has 五七桐， then it's for the Korean government 朝鮮總督府

[Bruce Pennington]

13 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

五七

Oops, you had it the first time - it's 3-5-3 on the pattern.  Not being a Japanese speaker/reader, I didn't get your point earlier.

[BANGBANGSAN]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Oops, you had it the first time - it's 3-5-3 on the pattern.  Not being a Japanese speaker/reader, I didn't get your point earlier.

Yes,that's what I though, it looks like 3-5-3(五三桐）

[drb 1643]

Too bad Nick Komia isn’t available anymore. He was a treasure trove of information. I sincerely miss him. The forestry dirks all have full back straps and the same boar’s eye scabbard fittings. I’ve attached pictures from the late Ken Banks collection book.

He actually has a very similar dirk pictured although he was guessing about exactly what it is. I was hoping someone here would have a more definitive opinion as to what exactly this dirk is. Anyway thank you both Trystan and Bruce for your time and input.

Tom

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, drb 1643 said:

Too bad Nick Komia isn’t available anymore. He was a treasure trove of information. I sincerely miss him. The forestry dirks all have full back straps and the same boar’s eye scabbard fittings. I’ve attached pictures from the late Ken Banks collection book.

He actually has a very similar dirk pictured although he was guessing about exactly what it is. I was hoping someone here would have a more definitive opinion as to what exactly this dirk is. Anyway thank you both Trystan and Bruce for your time and input.

Tom

 

In that case, your Railway dirk could sit in the forestry dirk scabbard, similar to how this Korean dirk is paired with a red cross dirk scabbard.

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/Japanese-railway-naval-dirk-680828/https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/Japanese-railway-naval-dirk-680828/

[Bruce Pennington]

On 3/14/2023 at 4:38 PM, drb 1643 said:

Ken Banks collection book.

Tom, you nailed it there! Did the one you have come from Bill Rannow?  Are these one and the same dirk?  And what's the name of that book?  Looks like another good reference book to have.

[drb 1643]

It’s not the same dirk. Mr. Banks’s dirk has a shagreen scabbard and this one is leather. It seems Banks and Rannow were hypothesizing about what it could be. I’m was hoping for updated information about what it actually is. To bad Nick Komia is no longer able to chime in, that man was an incredible source of information. The book is titled Japanese Pattern Dirks, the Banks Collection. It’s long out of print and difficult to come by.

Tom

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, it's significant that there are now 2 of them, which means the pattern was intentional and not a mix-match.

[drb 1643]

A good friend of mine found this copy in his notebook that he’s had for over 30 years. He’s not sure where it came from but look at the dirk pictured at the top of the left hand column. It’s the same style as the one I posted. I can not read the text and it appears that some of it was cut off from the top when copied. If anyone here can please shed some light on what the text says I will be extremely grateful. 
Thank you for any information,

Tom

[canuckodile]

I hope reviving this thread for the future reference of others is acceptable. I recently happened upon one of these from an auction in the U.S. from the collection of a Michael Quigley. Attached are some photos (I can't take better ones myself). Unfortunately lacking the locking pin.
So there are at least 3 floating around now. Mine is also shagreen, not leather. I haven't seen this particular one referenced elsewhere outside of this thread, the auction or the Banks book noted above.

I'll be taking it apart eventually to see if the blade has a mei.

 

[canuckodile]

On 3/22/2023 at 5:03 PM, drb 1643 said:

A good friend of mine found this copy in his notebook that he’s had for over 30 years. He’s not sure where it came from but look at the dirk pictured at the top of the left hand column. It’s the same style as the one I posted. I can not read the text and it appears that some of it was cut off from the top when copied. If anyone here can please shed some light on what the text says I will be extremely grateful. 
Thank you for any information,

Tom

Lots of potential here. I hope this actually gets seen, hehe.
Modern OCR technology is incredible. 
I threw this image by itself into: https://www.imagetotext.info/

Here is the raw characters it got (might not be 100% accurate of course):

 



柑枚になっても下士官時代に与えら れた勲章を佩用します。 私が中学生の時、 特進し た中尉が体操の教官でしたが、 式日には勲六等の 旭日章と功六級の金鵄章を佩用して居られた。 し かし、 特進した将校は少佐まで進みますが、 大尉 になる時までに上位の勲章を授与されていると思 いますから、大尉が勲八等の勲章をつけているこ
り、旭日章は平時でも勲功により、瑞宝章は戦時 平時を問わず勤労により授与されます。
(服制史家 太田臨一郎)
(89/2 )
■軍人以外に短剣を佩びた職種は
筒井さんの質問について、 入手資料を一宮、 一点ずつイラストにしました。 階級と年代で模様
if
1
(6
17

And here is the translated version (Google):

I will continue to wear the medals I received as a non-commissioned officer even after I retire. When I was in junior high school, a specially promoted second lieutenant was my gymnastics teacher, and on the day of the ceremony, he wore the Order of the Rising Sun, 6th Class, and the Order of Gold, 6th Class. However, officers who are promoted to special rank are promoted to major, but by the time they become captain they should have been awarded an even higher medal, so it is no wonder that captains have medals. 8th grade. The Order of the Rising Sun with Small Ribbons is awarded to those who have achieved great deeds even in peacetime, and the Order of the Sacred Treasure is awarded to hard-working people, regardless of whether they are in wartime or peacetime. (Costume historian Rinichiro Ota) (89/2) ■ Occupations other than soldiers who own a dagger In response to Tsutsui's question, Ichinomiya illustrated the materials he had obtained. Patterns by class and age if 1 (6 17

[Kiipu]

On 3/22/2023 at 2:03 PM, drb 1643 said:

He’s not sure where it came from

 

The drawing of the seventeen (17) dirks is coming from a Japanese publication called RANRU.  The translation below is courtesy of Shiro Yoshida.

 

Left Column, Top to Bottom

1) Imperial Forest & Field Bureau.

2) Small Forest Station.

3) Forest Officer.

4) Governor’s Headquarters of Taiwan.

5) Governor’s Headquarters of Korea.

6) South Pacific Government Office.

7) Navy Cadet.

8. Navy Officer.

9) Imperial Police Guard.

 

Right Column, Top to Bottom

10) Government Office of Karafuto, Sakhalin.

11) Department of Imperial Household.

12) Red Cross.

13) Railroad Bureau.

14) Police Officer.

15) Firefighting Officer.

16) Manchuria.

17) Manchuria.

[drb 1643]

Thanks very much Kiipu for your assistance!

Tom