Help with identification of coins ...

[docliss]

Are any of our widely-read members able to identify the coins depicted on this tsuba? Are they representative of genuine coinage or simply stylised and with random kanji? With my thanks in advance, John L.

[Rich S]

Yes, they represent Chinese coins, which the Japanese used until they

developed their own coinage - but I don't recall when that was. Not an

uncommon motif.

 

Rich S

[drbvac]

Doc: This is a Japanese Mon coin from the late 1600's

and this is one from the 600's Around 1000 the bartering and the exchange with china they brought back more chinese coins as tender and many Japanese merchants minted their own but they were pretty rough. It was around 700 Japan minted their own coins but they used xhinese characters on them and I think they switched back and forth for several hundred years.

[Soshin]

I have a Edo period wakazashi tsuba with a coin designs on it done in a thick ji-sukashi style. The central diamond shaped silk spool is also done in ji-sukashi. The Edo period coins were pattern after Chinese Tan'g Dynasty coin designs. I hope you find this information helpful. Here are some scans of my tsuba for reference and a small photograph of a Chinese Tan'g Dynasty coin.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David (Soshin)

[Bugyotsuji]

The comments are generally correct, ie that Chinese circular cash with a square hole were the dominant coinage throughout the Far East for a couple of thousand years. Japan produced some locally from about Asuka and Nara onwards, 708-958 AD but Chinese coins continued to move freely back and forth.

 

John's second photo, top left. The Wado-Kaiho (or Wado Kaichin) 708 AD coin pictured there is the one posted by Brian in his bottom photo, and was long thought to be Japan's first real domestically-produced coin.

 

There were also some special coins produced in Japan in Muromachi called Bo-eki coins, such as Nagasaki Boeki-sen. Then as Brian says, from 1668 one type, the 'New' Kan-Ei Tsu-ho One-Mon (Photo One) and Four-Mon pattern (waves on reverse) dominated the scene till the end of Edo. Neither this coin nor the oblong Tenpo-tsuho is apparent on your Tsuba. The cross on the back of one represents the back of a Kanei-tsuho of 1736, however.

 

Is one example enough? I can probably check the others but it will take time that I will have to find. As Rich says, the rest look like Chinese trade coins, to me too. Some of the representations seem to have been deliberately altered in some small detail as though it might have been a problem being too accurate. One at least looks like a representation of good luck, the one that says 'Long life'... :lol:

[docliss]

My grateful thanks to you all for your replies to my query. The incredibly wide range of knowledge that exists among the NMB members never ceases to amaze me.

 

John L.

[FredKP]

Hi,

Another one with real coins inlayed.

The carved one seems to be a 1 sen coin

[Lee Bray]

Is the Japanese mon coin from the 1600's worth anything?

I have a small collection of Chinese coinage and this thread made me look at the few I have with the square hole. One of them is the same as the picture above.

[drbvac]

Not a lot = maybe 6-8 bucks US if in great shape - go on ebay and do a search

[Lee Bray]

I did and you're correct. With opening bids of $0.99, I'm certainly not sat on my retirement fund.

Ah well, still an interesting little find and I don't need to spend 8 bucks to get one...

[Marc BROQUIN]

Hello John,

May I suggest, as a roman coin collector too, you go on a site called V-coins.

You will find there a lot of coin dealers and if you make a search with chinese coins, I think you may find what you are looking for.

Best

Marc

[kokyo jin]

Reopening this old topic just to add some info from my Japanese numismatic catalog.

 

of course there are more pages on Japan ancient coins...

 

 

[watsonmil]

Dear all,

The subject of Japanese coinage is somewhat off subject to the study of Nihonto, but closely related to the artifacts of the Samurai. I attach a photo of a few Edo period coinage. Now if I could only find that elusive gold oban starting at 0.99 !

... Ron Watson

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

The tsuba I posted with the coin design in ji-sukashi is now in Japan for NBTHK shinsa. Will keep everyone posted as to the results.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Bugyotsuji]

Incidentally I have a collection of fake coins that I have picked up over the years. When I can get the camera and some time organized I'll post them up, in the name of education of course! :lol:

[Bugyotsuji]

I like your frame and the display Ron.

 

Apologies. Cannot find the 'old' Chinese/Japanese brass circular coins which might have been interesting in this thread.

 

Instead I offer these, all fakes, including the Ichi-Bu Gin, the two Isshu-Gin, the Bu-Kin and Ni-Shu-Kin.

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

Most interesting, .... I purchased my coins individually perhaps over a period of 3-4 years the latest being probably 5 years ago. Mine were purchased from various dealers in International coins. I made up the display myself using a picture of a woodblock print ( old auction catalogue ) and a Faux bamboo frame I found at a garage sale, ... but which I thought ideal. Now having seen your Fake Coins, I am wondering if any of mine too are copies ( I'm not a coin collector ). Mine were purchased to exemplify the coinage of Japan of the Edo period.

I never even considered that any might be copies, .... but given the Oriental penchant for faking/copying .... it might well be the case. Sadly I have no access to a specialist in this field, .... so I am at a disadvantage in comparison to your position. Hmmm, ... Thank you for bringing this information to light.

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

At risk of taking this thread even further off-subject, I expect that yours are probably genuine Ron.

 

When I was given the above Bu coins, I was assured that they were rare. The bloke might even have had them run up in China. I carried them around for a while. One day at an antiques fair one of the dealers pointed out a coin 'expert' in the crowd. I handed him the above coins and he looked astonished as he examined them. "Has it really come to this?" he asked. So I do not think we need to worry unduly. Just check the edges.

[kokyo jin]

http://list5.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/%E ... 0jp&mode=1

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The subject of Japanese coinage is somewhat off subject to the study of Nihonto, but closely related to the artifacts of the Samurai.

 

Allow me help to maintain it a bit related to Nihonto

 

 

 

 

[george trotter]

 

Just check the edges.

 

Years ago while idling in an antique shop I fossicked in his odds and ends jar (odd coins/medals/badges/silver buttons etc) and picked out a rectangle silver coin which he gave to me. I knew it was Japanese but thanks to the link here I now know it is an Ansei dated (1853) Isshu Gin. As it seems identical to the fakes you illustrate, and also the genuine ones on the coin site link...how do we tell? My edges seem rather coarsely filed. When you say check the edges, what should we find?

Regards,

George.

[Mark Green]

I like this one

It would make a nice tsuba design.

I have a handful of old Chinese coins that my Dad brought back from China in thee 30's. He was told they were very old.

I am interested, as to what to look for on the edges as well. First I'll have to find them.

Mark G

[Bugyotsuji]

George and Mark, about the edges I will have to withdraw the comment. My coins are stapled into little cardboard frames; I was planning to open them up and take shots to illustrate the edge differences. "See the edges", I had been told when they were given to me, and a quick glance showed rough file marks. From what I can see now on closer inspection, however, the edges seem all different, not at all what was in my memory cells. The two 'fake' Ni-shu Gin are quite different from each other in design and execution. Nothing to go on there either.

 

The only things I can say about the 'fake' rectangular coins is that they are impossible to bend in the fingers, and the Ichi-bu Gin is much yellower than genuine silver Ichibus. Also, on any Ichibu, one of the sakura flowers will normally be upside down, telling you by its position the mint and date. This feature seems to be missing on the fake.

 

Loved the coin-hiding koshirae, Carlos.

 

The Tempo-looking 'Chinese' Nozarashi coin you posted Mark, says Namu-Amida-Butsu in a mixture of hiragana and Kanji... nice design, but I wonder what its real purpose was?

http://www.google.co.jp/images?hl=ja&cl ... 24&bih=579

[IanB]

Carlo, Snap! Here is a fake money carrying tanto that must have been made in the same workshop as the top example illustrated in the tanto book - notice the spiral designs on the scabbard. The part that carried the coins is paper-thin but carved from solid wood with a slight curve to fit the scabbard. You would have thought it would have been easier to make it from veneer rolled around a former, but no. I once owned a long wakizashi with a drawer concealed inside the saya alongside the blade. When you took the sword out, there was a small notch for your fingernail just below the koiguchi which pulled out a drawer made of horn about 14" long and about 1" wide.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Indeed it looks very similar.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I once owned a long wakizashi with a drawer concealed inside the saya alongside the blade. When you took the sword out, there was a small notch for your fingernail just below the koiguchi which pulled out a drawer made of horn about 14" long and about 1" wide.

 

The poor seller. Never sure if the blade was to be drawn to pay or to slash... :lol:

[IanB]

Carlo, Good masame grain though.

Ian

[John A Stuart]

I have quite a few of these coins. The smaller ones have a rough edge while the larger bugin have smooth edges with an asterisk form stamp on the edges. John

[kokyo jin]

[John A Stuart]

We still need you to sign with a given name. I see it is Hilik. John