To Shinsa or Not to Shinsa…

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Interested in the thoughts of the collective on this one. I understand getting a sword or fitting to Shinsa to find out more about it, but what if you already know what the piece is? Say a nice Heian or Kinko Tsuba that you know is Heian or Kinko already? What about a sword that you know to be of the maker on the Mei based on its characteristics?  

Does Shinsa add enough value to pieces that are already obvious what they are?

 

I write this as im debating Shinsa here in April at the CHI sword show

 

 

 

[francois2605]

I personally don't really care about papers but I believe they may increase your chances for reselling as some buyers will only buy papered items and others will find it reassuring to have a paper confirming that a piece is genuine.

 

I sometimes buy from Aoi Arts and I asked them twice to submit a sword to shinsa for me. The cost is modest (around 250 EUR) and since the item is already in Japan, you don't have the hassle of shipping the item overseas, paying an agent for the paperwork. The downside is that you usually need to wait several weeks or months but I'm fine with that.

[John C]

14 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

the collective

As in the Borg?

My opinion as a novice collector is that the origami adds verification in the same way as graded comic books or trading cards.

But if I were an experienced collector, it may not matter as much. And as has been noted on the forum before, if it cannot reach higher than Hozon, there is not much point.

John C. 

[Katsujinken]

If you think you might ever want to sell it, getting it papered will lubricate that process. 
 

If it’s good, it’s good, so you’ll always be able to sell it. NBTHK papers will just make it faster / easier depending on the piece and market at the time. 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

1 hour ago, Katsujinken said:

If you think you might ever want to sell it, getting it papered will lubricate that process. 
 

If it’s good, it’s good, so you’ll always be able to sell it. NBTHK papers will just make it faster / easier depending on the piece and market at the time. 

What about NTHK-NPO @Katsujinken? Same weight? In my brain I feel like NTHK is less valuable for some reason

[Toryu2020]

I would say it is the other way round but I'm biased...

 

-t

[David Flynn]

Here's my spin, If you are having a sword polished, then Shinsa is a must.   If you are only considering having a sword polished, then  again, Shinsa  is a must.

[Rivkin]

Overall fittings like ko kinko for many customers do not yield a price increase with papers. I personally would not pay extra for anything papered Heian and such. Even at the mainline Goto level there are many fittings not having any papers and still going for 10-20k.

With blades there are very few customers who would go for unpapered blade.

NTHK is a victim of self-fulfilled monopoly. For many people having NTHK papers brings up a question "what was wrong with NBTHK ones". And Europeans are generally not used to seeing them at all.

In the US people rely on them, since that's what comes to the US and that's what a lot of people have.

 

Personally I feel the issue at times is not any particular organization per se, but there are really bad shinsa sessions. You see half of worksheets having one and the same attribution, a stream of TokuJu level names and then 5 years later these blades still can't find a customer and are still at the same basic paper level, etc.etc.

Happens unfortunately more often recently than before.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

22 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

I would say it is the other way round but I'm biased...

 

-t

Thanks Tom. Share your thoughts on why? My feeling is only a gut feeling, I have no data to back it up

@Toryu2020

Jesse

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Great insights @Rivkin!!

[Toryu2020]

Jesse 

I think you can find old threads on the split in this forum and I'm sure many would not like to rehash it all here. Needless to say I support the first, original and only authentic NTHK (Yoshikawa group) and no other...

 

-t

[Rivkin]

NPO versus non-NPO separation brings up some fun memories, but by now all participating parties have departed.

Which papers are "better"?

Well, are you from CA, the land of NTHK or Midwest, the land of NPO?

Do you paper NTHK in Japan, which I argue is more convenient to do with NPO?

Who issues actually "better" papers? Could have been an interesting topic, but both groups did change a lot in their ranks and practices within the last year.

 

I am personally very much in the NPO camp, but would prefer to discuss a particular paper rather than generalities like "which one is better".

NPO has an issue, for example, that the guy who writes up the initial assessment (jigane, sori etc.) is both junior and sloppy and given the huge volume of blades to work with at times his errors go uncorrected not just into the worksheet but also into papers issued.

So you end up having shinogizukuri called hirazukuri etc. It does not affect the actual judgement but sticks out.

 

They have different "bucket attributions", completely incomparable grading scale; NTHK usually gives 60 or 70 or 80 with slight variation in scores. The number positions the item vis-a-vis those of comparable class. NPO is 70-73 for low grade items (condition issues etc.), 75-76 for something decent and 77-78 for the best 10% of submissions. This being said, they are more comfortable giving 77+ to items in near perfect condition and fresh polish, so you end up with many shinshinto names in this segment and while Nobukuni 78 is a VERY high score, Yokoyama Sukenaga 78 can be just a very good Sukenaga. NPO was traditionally more comfortable giving unusual names. You submit a Juyo to some common name like Etchu Tametsugu or Bizen Masamitsu and NPO will give you 76 points and a name from the same school you need books to even know.

Generally I personally appreciated "resubmition" value of NPO for this, you see at times attribution to Daishinbo and other names whom "normal people" prefer not to touch.

[David Flynn]

As far as which societies papers are better?  With signed swords, I don't believe it really  matters (unless one is considering Juyo)  As far as Mumei swords go, I believe the American Shinsa with the two NTHK may tend to rush their verdict.   However, I put  more credence with Shinsa in  Japan ( for Mumei).   Again, unless one is going for Juyo, I hold all three as a much of a muchness (in Japan).

[Brian]

For maximum benefit and most trusted...I think NBTHK. But a US shinsa is convenient and much cheaper, and frankly I would generally regard any of the papers from all 3 organizations to be far better than no papers.
I would happily submit to a US shinsa.
I accept that all 3 groups know far more than me. Also, papers are indeed better when selling. Especially at the mid level. At the upper levels, collectors are usually more fussy.
There is no real downside to papers, aside from the expense. If you can afford it, and the return on investment isn't your primary focus, go for it. But don't do it just for the money.
 

[Alex A]

Depends.

 

An example.

 

I could own an OBVIOUS late Muromachi Mino Tanto, signed Kane (whatever), with everything correct right down to the yasurime.

 

I know its genuine but a great number wont. If it don't have papers, your limiting any future sale to those that are able to verify and accept for themselves OR would need to be papered for newbies and the ignorant to purchase.

 

Lack of papers must reflect price.

 

Then you have price, many wont pay for an expensive piece without papers, which is understandable.

 

The big grey area is Mumei and the thousands of oddball blades that throw a spanner in the works. Some folk cant accept and need to know so head to shinsa. I dont feel any real contentment comes from such blades regarding maker, even after attaining papers, but that's me.

 

Some beautiful mid level blades out there without papers and owners that have been able to research and come up with their own opinions, isn't that what this hobby is about.

 

Tons of variables, set by the blade in question and the differing folks that buys them.

 

 

 

 

[kissakai]

If you are looking to buy say from Japan and it is a well known maker there is always the question asked 'if it is that good the seller would have it papered, suggesting no paper no authenticity.

Not a specific reply to the post just an observation on 'papers'

 

[Katsujinken]

16 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

What about NTHK-NPO @Katsujinken? Same weight? In my brain I feel like NTHK is less valuable for some reason

NBTHK papers are the gold standard in the marketplace. This is pretty much indisputable in my opinion. 

[Mark S.]

NTHK papers (both flavors) are a little more ‘educational’ and probably tailored more to an overseas market who need a little assistance. 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

2 hours ago, Mark S. said:

NTHK papers (both flavors) are a little more ‘educational’ and probably tailored more to an overseas market who need a little assistance. 

Thanks for this @Mark S.

do you happen to know who our judges are at the CHI show?

[Alex A]

Whilst on the subject, a niggle.

 

Do feel from reading the odd post that a few folk over indulge in the complexes of kantei and put shinsa panels et al on such an high pedestal it becomes really boring. Lost count of the blades that re-paper to something else.

 

A blade either fits or it don't, in my book the blades that don't fit or are questionable are not worth buying if provenance is of importance to you. (which for most folk it is)

 

This hobby can be full of bull££$$ and bull""""rs, (though not intentional) 

 

Its impossible to be factual when nothing can be factual. ,just varying and somewhat sometimes foggy opinions on foggy swords, from time to time.

 

I find it crazy folk will buy expensive mumei swords with the only verification being someone else's opinion of what it is.

[Baba Yaga]

3 hours ago, Alex A said:

Whilst on the subject, a niggle.

 

Do feel from reading the odd post that a few folk over indulge in the complexes of kantei and put shinsa panels et al on such an high pedestal it becomes really boring. Lost count of the blades that re-paper to something else.

 

A blade either fits or it don't, in my book the blades that don't fit or are questionable are not worth buying if provenance is of importance to you. (which for most folk it is)

 

This hobby can be full of bull££$$ and bull""""rs, (though not intentional) 

 

Its impossible to be factual when nothing can be factual. ,just varying and somewhat sometimes foggy opinions on foggy swords, from time to time.

 

I find it crazy folk will buy expensive mumei swords with the only verification being someone else's opinion of what it is.

 

I can tell you've been around when I see an honest post like that. Be careful, a lot of collectors haven't and will argue the premise. No-One knows, but everyone knows everything, especially Google.   I would make this statement, much is intentional. They know what they don't know. It's a hobby of obscurity and disinformation much like any science. 

[Alex A]

Hi Baba, perhaps too honest.

 

All i can say is, im as about as interested into getting into debates on the topic as i am in such swords, so it ends there.

 

It was not a point to upset folk, just my own view and what i dislike about certain swords, its an age old issue.

 

I think sometimes its necessary to be honest and say what you think, stuff often gets shrouded in history and continuous ramblings.

 

Actually, usually when someone makes such remarks, fires up some good learning 

 

 

 

[John C]

4 hours ago, Alex A said:

mumei swords with the only verification being someone else's opinion of what it is.

I suppose that is similar to the art world. Unsigned works of art being attributed to a famous artist then sold at auction for a hefty sum. 

[Mark S.]

5 hours ago, Alex A said:

…the only verification being someone else's opinion of what it is.

I do agree with you somewhat, but I also think the ‘someone’ is the issue.  If I am giving my opinion on the kantei of a blade and sign a piece of paper saying this is what I think it is, well, that’s worth less than the piece of paper unless you agree with me too. And if another person doesn’t agree with an NBTHK or NTHK opinion, then no ‘convincing’ is gonna convince them.  
 

In every field, there are ‘experts’.  We don’t HAVE to trust them.  Many do.  It really is a personal opinion (just like the paper) as to whether you give it weight or not.  It’s not good or bad, it’s just the way it is.  

[Mark S.]

17 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

Thanks for this @Mark S.

do you happen to know who our judges are at the CHI show?

From the “Shows and Events” section:

 

Mr. Ohashi (kodogu), Mr. Sasaoka, Mr. Kawashima, Mr. Kuwabara, Mr. Morikawa

You can get more shinsa and show info there.  
 

With the passing of Miyano Sensei it will be interesting to see how the shinsa results shake out moving forward.  

[Matsunoki]

29 minutes ago, John C said:

suppose that is similar to the art world. Unsigned works of art being attributed to a famous artist then sold at auction for a hefty sum. 

Indeed, there is a strong parallel with the fine art world. Wonderful paintings with no signature that attract very different expert opinions. Signed paintings that equally attract differing expert opinions. Awful paintings with wonderful signatures, beautiful paintings with awful signatures. Paintings hitherto believed genuine are later discredited. Paintings believed fake  later proved genuine….and so it goes on……Paintings bought by investors that subsequently lose them money. Paintings bought cheaply that make a fortune. Experts eatinging humble pie. Experts disagreeing….even ending up in law courts!!

 

Ours is a “hobby” where it is best to be comfortable with uncertainty because the best you will ever get is an opinion. Shinsa does not bring 100% certainty as evidenced by the same sword receiving very different appraisals by different shinsa. You will however get a piece of paper with an expert opinion, or rather a collective expert opinion. Generally a paper will enhance the perceived value of a sword, it will maybe make it easier to sell, it may bring a degree of comfort or satisfaction……or often it brings disappointment. It may or may not back up your initial judgment to buy the sword.

 

It all depends on why you own the sword - because you like it? Because you think it’s a bargain? Because you think it’s a great investment? Because it brings you joy? Because you want to boast about it? Because you want to save it? Because you want to learn? Because you simply must have a Nihonto…..

How you answer those questions might suggest whether Shinsa is for you/your sword.

Just some ramblings. Fire away🙂

 

 

 

[David Flynn]

Seeing as this is primarily  about Mumei, allow me to share an anecdote.     Someone I know had an O Suriage Kambun Shinto sword.   The owner was convinced it was Koto Hasebe school.    It was polished in Japan and sent  to the NTHK for shinsa.  Well, they didn't give it "Hasebe" , but to a Osaka smith.   The owner, obviously didn't agree, so the sword was then sent to the NBTHK.   Their opinion was only slightly different.    They gave it as the Osaka  Smiths Father!   My thoughts, when I first saw the sword was that, it was possibly Mishina school ( I was closer than the owner).

 

Mumei swords can be a real problem, especially  if they're dirty.

[raynor]

Speaking from experience, do not buy the paper, repeat do not buy the paper buy the item, especially for blades. If picking up your first sword and looking to learn, try to buy something good as you will not learn much from a tired low quality blade.

I set forth that I would buy a good sword, preferably signed and dated and ended up picking one up here on the forum. It was unpapered, had it sent to the last NTHK shinsa with the late Yoshikawa sensei in the US and it came back kanteisho without any surprises as expected - I was after confirmation from someone in the real know about what I thought about it and got some nice little tidbits from the origami as extra bonus. I'm still learning from that blade and do not see myself selling it even though I could probably "make money" now with it papered, so I guess one can say papers add or more correctly cements monetary value. Unless it's a mumei blade that papers to a big name, then the attribution definitively adds value.

 

If you want to make money there are so many better ways and hobbies to invest rather then nihonto that I don't know where to start. Unless you found the Honjo Masamune in a barn.

 

I have no bone to pick and not much experience but the nbthk/nthk/npo debacle over which one is good or more reputable is kind of pointless - we have some extremely knowledgeable members on this forum but any of the shinsa panels from either organization will not be staffed by people walking in randomly from the street. Are they infallible, no of course not. Is a panel of Japanese experts as good as it gets? Pretty much. I've observed it is mostly us western collectors picking teams here like it is a sports tournament or favorite pin up debate, some might have legitimate reasons to prefer one organization over another, all I know is that the nbthk has come a long way since the green paper mess decades ago and the nthk had a head judge who looked after the emperor of Japan's sword collection. I guess they do not let you do that if you do not know what you are doing. 

[Baba Yaga]

I have a Naginata that's in good polish, Ubu, signed, papered by the NTHK. No gripes at all, but it was done some years ago when standards were entirely different. 

The good ol-days when Naginata provided a 35% premium.