A Concerning Crude Nakago

[Conway S]

Hello all. I am new to the message board and only a novice collector of WW2-era Japanese swords (I mainly collect WW1/WW2 headgear).

 

I acquired this sword through my father who recently purchased it at a local gun show. Upon disassembly, I was immediately confronted by the misshapen and crude nakago as well as the oddly placed rivet hole. The fittings and scabbard don't concern me, although I should mention it does not have any spacers. I would appreciate any thoughts on the authenticity of this piece. Going forward, I probably won't buy another sword unless I see it in person first. Let me know if more pictures are necessary. Thank you.

 

Conway

 

 

 

 

[Conway S]

[Brian]

Huge red flag. In that state, even if it were genuine (probably not) it would be a deal breaker.

[Conway S]

[Bruce Pennington]

These are often Chinese fakes.  Although, the nakago is actually worse than normal fakes.  The blade tip appears to have been shaped with a grinder.  Curious to see the fittings, too, if you don't mind.

 

There are many swords with badly formed nakago that were made in occupied territories, and it is often very difficult to tell them apart from the fakes.  

[Conway S]

Appreciate the replies Bruce and Brian. I was hoping the blade tip would show in the pictures. Here are the fittings that came with it. 

[Conway S]

[Kiipu]

Conway, can you take a closeup picture of the crossguard [tsuba]?

[Bruce Pennington]

Good idea Thomas.

 

Also, @Conway S is that white insert in the katugane - plastic?

[Conway S]

 

 

 

[Conway S]

The little white insert is actually metal. 

[Conway S]

The collar is also intended for a sword that had the blade release mechanism. Not sure if it was common to piece swords together, but I assume that is not a good sign. 

 

 

[Kiipu]

Thanks Conway for the crossguard/sword guard pictures.  I figured I had seen that tsuba somewhere else and sure enough see the link below.   Jonathan AKA @AlphaRaider has a sword that has a similar crossguard.  Jonathan's sword has a single kanji character on the tang, so can you check your tang for any such characters.

WW2 Japanese sword Marking, Page 2

[John C]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

a similar crossguard.

Thomas:

So what is your working theory? Are you getting a sense of what these might actually be? Chinese fakes; Island manufacture; "rare Air crewman's tsuba"?

John C.

[Conway S]

With great difficulty, I was able to remove the habaki. No markings found. Does the picture provide any further indication of what this sword might be (Chinese fake or some other non-Japanese made period sword)? There was a blue/green gunk under the habaki. 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Same tsuba and kabutogane designs!  Also, the fuchi on both are legit Japanese design.

 

To add some credibility, this machi on this blade are aligned straight across, whereas many Chinese fakes have offset machi.

 

Hmmm...

[AlphaRaider]

Thanks for posting and welcome to the group. haha not like I'm not new myself.

Neat sword you have, thanks for sharing it. I have included a picture of my Tsuba which is quite similar to yours. I have noticed about 4 other swords with a similar guard. not sure of the official name or style.

My sword tang has a style close to yours in terms of shape and the angles and flats like yours. Hopefully you enjoy it.

 

Sword aside I've noticed these couple things...

- The handle wrap is incorrect looking / / / / one direction in the wrapping. 

- The Tsuba does look similar to mine however it looks much newer. It seems fresh if that makes sense, maybe not exposed to elements?

- The ray skim looks nice and white.

- The leather combat wrap looks to be in nice condition.

 

Here is mine and his Tsuba:

 

-J. Hoff

 

[Kiipu]

12 hours ago, AlphaRaider said:

I have included a picture of my tsuba which is quite similar to yours. Not sure of the official name or style.

 

A good question and I do not have an answer to it.  However, @Spartancrest might be able to provide an answer as to the name of the tsuba design/style.

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

However, @Spartancrest might be able to provide an answer

The "style" is Chinese fake - sorry.

The design is a form of Amida - Yasuri  the halo of the Buddha, the outline is Mokko-gata [four lobed].

 

 

[Kiipu]

On 3/8/2023 at 2:10 PM, John C said:

So what is your working theory? Are you getting a sense of what these might actually be?

 

I am leaning more toward postwar Chinese production rather than wartime Chinese production.  However, the opinion is subject to revision as new information comes to light. 

 

The sword above and the sword linked to below seem to be coming from the same shop or they used the same parts supplier.  Note the similarity in the fittings and the lack of menuki.

WW2 Japanese sword Marking

 

Conway, I would like one more picture and that is of the entire handle.  Would like to compare the handle to the one linked above.

[Spartancrest]

Perhaps the sword mounts could also be using some 'recycled' fittings?

[Kiipu]

The lower ranks were allowed to use personal swords until 1939 and many of these swords were purchased in China.  Take a look at the second picture down from the top, two NCOs with private swords can be seen.  This is the dilemma that we face in trying to identify these swords in this thread and others.

私物軍刀

[Conway S]

Here is another picture of the handle. 

 

[Conway S]

Here is a photo of the leather scabbard. It looks fairly identical to the one in the other post regarding @AlphaRaider's sword. Note the orange thread which was used to sew the leather together. That is another oddity that stuck out to me when I first had the sword in hand. 

 

[Conway S]

[Kiipu]

Many thanks Conway for the additional photographs.  I located another picture showing an enlisted soldier in China with one of these samurai style swords slung across his back.  This photograph was posted by @lonely panet back in 2018.

Photo Translation Please, Post #12

[Conway S]

Thomas, 

 

Those two pictures are very interesting. The amount of uncertainty in the collecting world definitely makes the hobby exciting. You start to realize how each item is a small piece in solving a much larger puzzle.

 

I like reading all the differing opinions on these swords too. I am glad the post spawned further discussion on this topic. 

 

Conway

[Bruce Pennington]

21 hours ago, Kiipu said:

The lower ranks were allowed to use personal swords until 1939 and many of these swords were purchased in China.  Take a look at the second picture down from the top, two NCOs with private swords can be seen.  This is the dilemma that we face in trying to identify these swords in this thread and others.

私物軍刀

Thomas,

Could the design depicted in this photo from your link possibly be what we are seeing on these kabutogane?

[Kiipu]

The drawing depicts what collectors call a Type 98 Military Sword 昭和十三年制定軍刀 and is coming from the 1938 announcement of the new uniform.  At this time, the Type 94 lost the second removable hanger and now the same sword was called a Type 98.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 3/8/2023 at 8:31 AM, Conway S said:

 

 

 

Here is a Showato made by 天池義正（  Amachi Yoshimasa）with a similar guard in black.