Blade construction and purchase price

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, I have a question about sword blades and the purchase price of a blade.  I have a couple of reference books on samurai swords.  But the best reference I found dealing with the different layers of steel in blades is listed below.  I found that on the internet.

 

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/article/construction-methods-Japanese-swords

 

Do blades that are made with varying layers of different steels “fetch” a higher price?  How can one tell (besides the mei – if the blade has a mei on it) how the blade was constructed?

 

I have found that by determining the mei on the piece, it could further be assumed that the blade was constructed in a certain way (because the blade construction by certain smiths is known).  Otherwise, you can cut the blade in two pieces to see the “cross section”, but hey who would want to do that!

 

So, is it possible that a blade with a mei and is in beautiful polish can fetch a higher price then an unsigned blade that is constructed with more layers, was more difficult to forge, and required a more knowledgeable sword smith to produce (but is not in great or good polish)? 

 

I have learned that certain construction techniques were used in certain periods of Japanese history.  But that doesn’t mean that all the blades produced in those periods were constructed in the same way.

 

I also found a thread on NMB from 2012 which addresses blade construction-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/9384-construction/#comment-95073

 

I mean how could anyone actually determine the construction of the blade if it has no authentic (not gimei) mei on it?   Maybe there is a modern scientific “scanning” type technique that could be used?  But maybe if the blade was “worn out” in places then the underlying layer of metal (if there is one) could be seen?  But how about a blade that is actually made of different layers of steel, but is not “worn out”?

 

Just something that caught my interest (again!).

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Unfortunately I cannot directly answer to original question aboout construction methods and prices but I will give bit of my own insight for old mumei blades.

 

I think soon I have been tracking swords from Heian to early Muromachi for 10 years. In general some attributions are far more desirable from financial standpoint than others. Even though the sword itself might not change anything during different attributions. In general the sword will need attribution (as high level as possible) from NBTHK to reach full financial potential. While I personally like NTHK their attributions seem to carry quite little financial value in the market. While there are some other very valuable attributions (Tanobe Sayagaki, JuBi etc), they are much rarer than NBTHK papers.

 

In general better swords will get better attributions but there can still be very nice swords with "lower tier" attributions as the sword would be fitting to that attribution, as well as not too impressive items with "very high tier" attributions. Of course while that above comment is based on my personal taste and belief it is easy to provide data how the prices will change when you get down by down in attribution levels. And while not 100% accurate it will give some data. You shouldn't find cheap items with very good attributions, or if you do they will sell extremely fast. I do like and appreciate obscure stuff so I am glad I am not after high quality art swords.

[O koumori]

3 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Otherwise, you can cut the blade in two pieces to see the “cross section”, but hey who would want to do that!

Dan, 

There are now non-destructive methods to 'see' the inside of a sword. Unfortunately, there is (as of yet) a database of constructions by smiths

Microstructure Distribution of Japanese Sword Cross Sections.pdf

[PNSSHOGUN]

For some schools the Hada can be used to determine how a sword was made. 

[O koumori]

2 hours ago, O koumori said:

there is (as of yet) a database of constructions by smiths

Meant to say "no" database!

[Dan tsuba]

Thank you PNSSHOGUN (John).

 

So that means you can tell by the Hada how the blade was made?  In other words what you can see on the “outside” of the blade can tell you what is in the “inside” of the blade.  Very cool! 

 

Can you give me references so I can look it up?

 

Much appreciated.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Brian]

How it was made, the number of layers an construction has no real bearing on quality or value. The number of layers isn't something used when determining value.
The construction and layers may influence the look of the hada, and therefore that is what will indicate value and appreciation. But knowing a certain method was used isn't going to influence the price.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Matsuwaka hada from the Norishige school is one of the more famous examples: https://markussesko.com/2015/05/13/kantei-2-jigane-jihada-2/

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks all for your posts!

 

So, I mostly collect tsuba.  Tsuba can be made from layered metal, entirely made from different metals (iron, copper, shakudo) and also have an abundance of different and varying techniques in how they were forged or made.  I have tried to collect examples of as many different ones (techniques and metals) as I could, so I have examples of different types in my collection (now a museum!).

 

Now, referring to Brian’s post (above): 

 

Wouldn’t it be cool if the internal construction of a blade could be easily determined for certain!

 

If I was an avid collector of blades (and I have only a few) I would want to collect an example of each type of blade construction as shown in the below link-

 

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/article/construction-methods-Japanese-swords

 

Now, to determine (for certain) the internal construction of a blade (a cheap scientific scanning method of the internal analysis of a blade) probably won’t be available in my lifetime!  But it is a neat thing to consider!  And it may open a “new area” of interest for collectors of blades in the future!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, I have several books on Japanese swords.  I also own 5 blades.  3 from the Muromachi period and 2 from the Edo period.

 

My question is – is there any reference book that shows if the specific ji-hada grain on the outside of the blade refers to a specific internal structure of the blade?

 

In this thread it was stated:

 

“There are now non-destructive methods to 'see' the inside of a sword. Unfortunately, there is (as of yet) a (change “a” to “no” – added in another post) database of constructions by smiths”

 

It was also stated:

 

“How it was made, the number of layers an construction has no real bearing on quality or value. The number of layers isn't something used when determining value.”

The construction and layers may influence the look of the hada, and therefore that is what will indicate value and appreciation. But knowing a certain method was used isn't going to influence the price.”

 

I mean if my Muromachi blades have an internal construction of “Wariha-gitae” and my Edo blades have an internal construction of “Shihōzume-gitae” (let’s say with everything else being equal; the polish of both blades being in the same condition, the length of the blades being the same, the hamon being the same,  and no mei on either nakago) which would fetch the higher price?

 

Doing research for some of my other threads (and it was also stated on this thread), I recently discovered that there is now a non-destructive method for determining the internal structure of a blade.  I mean right now (currently) it is probably an expensive method.  But in the future, it may be available to the “average” blade collector (who knows!).

 

Wouldn’t knowing how the internal construction of how the blade was made be an interesting divergence in the collection of Japanese blades in the future?

 

With respect,

Dan

[David Flynn]

Up until late Edo, I believe most schools guarded their  forging "Secrets" .  So,  the construction and Tempering methods, although similar, would differ ( otherwise they would all be the same, Neh). Which means, it comes down to the Skill of the Smith/School, as to the quality and not the amount pieces in the construction.