Bizen ju Sukesada Mei question

[Jaron]

Hello NMB,

 

Has anyone ever seen a signature for a Sukesada where it is just “Bizen ju Sukesada” or would this be a classic Gimei?  I have looked over many the various signatures listed out there, like the nihontoclub.com site with all the smith listings and signatures,  and it seems the longer and more personalized/dated the better.  The sword I am looking at only shows the Mei on the certificate of “Bizen ju Sukesada” and I can’t see the signature well enough yet on the blade.  I think this is a big red flag, unless there is something there worthwhile someone has some input on.  The blade and hamon look decent with the hamon in the straight suguha  pattern similar to other Sukesadas.  Sorry I do not have pictures to provide at this time.

 

Thanks for your input in advance.

 

Jeff

[Bugyotsuji]

When you say 'the certificate', Jeff, what do you mean?

[Jaron]

Sorry to be vague, it’s not papered like from NBTHK, I meant the government certificate registering it, and the hand written name which is hard to make out but it is 5 characters which look like “ Bizen ju Sukesada” supposedly late Muromachi, so in the time of sword factories.  I found one case when a Sukesada smith signed “Bizen Sukesada “ that was papered.  I have also seen Bizen Sukesada Saku.

[Bugyotsuji]

Jeff, I think we’d really need to see it before commenting.

備前住祐定 I’ve run some searches on the net (assuming you mean 祐定 with these characters) but no match with that way of signing has come up yet.

[Jaron]

Hi Piers,

 

Thank you for the response and your own looking.  Yes  祐定 is what I am talking about and I agree that a better look at it is needed. Once I am able to get views I can post ai will.  From all the research I have done there are no short signatures other than the couple I mentioned above.  I don’t think there are any 備前住祐定 out there.

 

Jeff

[Bencld]

This one with niju mei unless they shaved the rest off when re shaping the nakago !

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Upside down! Chris, can you turn that shot the right way up? (Gakumei, might explain why something is missing in the middle?)
 

[Nobody]

  On 3/3/2023 at 8:21 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Upside down! Chris, can you turn that shot the right way up? (Gakumei, might explain why something is missing in the middle?)
 

 

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Orikaeshimei (折返し銘)

[Bugyotsuji]

Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhh…..

I wrote ‘orikaeshimei’ but then corrected it! 
 

Thank you! 

[Jaron]

As it turns out it actually is Bizen Ju Osafune Sukesada 備前住長船祐定 as noted from the seller.  The engraving is so light it is hard to see in pictures.  So at least it has Osafune in it but still a short signature.  Often in signatures after Bizen, not Bishu, the smith would engrave koku before the ju.   Still looking in resource material for anything like this particular one.

[Jacques]

Orikeashimei generally are good signs.

[Jean]

Jaron, read this topic: