Which one to buy? Advice needed.

[GoldenDrachen]

Hello everyone!

 

Here I am again. Asking for some guidance.

I have seen 2 tsuba  in adequate price range for me  70 -110€

Now, they are with the same motif, virtually identical. Craftsmanship not the top of the range, but it appeals to me.

Looking for an advice, which one is ...dunno how to put it...better? Or buy them both? I mean if they are both original, traditionally made, then why not?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Number one

 

 

Second one (looks slightly more detailed )

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Vitaly.

 

If I were to purhase one of these two tsuba, I would purchase the second one you pictured.  Why?  Because it actually appears to have been mounted as can be seen from the copper filler (sekigane) at the top of the tang slot (nakago-ana) in the tsuba.  They both appear (at least to me) to be cast.  So not "traditionally made" in the sense that they are hand forged metal plates.

 

Of course I could be entirely wrong!  I am sure other members will give you more details about the pieces.

 

Personally, I would wait for something better to come along.  Unless you really like them, and they "call to you" (as some of my tsuba have!).  

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[vajo]

 

 

 

[vajo]

Took that bronze cast tsuba. Not the iron one.

[GoldenDrachen]

40 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello Vitaly.

 

If I were to purhase one of these two tsuba, I would purchase the second one you pictured.  Why?  Because it actually appears to have been mounted as can be seen from the copper filler (sekigane) at the top of the tang slot (nakago-ana) in the tsuba.  They both appear (at least to me) to be cast.  So not "traditionally made" in the sense that they are hand forged metal plates.

 

Of course I could be entirely wrong!  I am sure other members will give you more details about the pieces.

 

Personally, I would wait for something better to come along.  Unless you really like them, and they "call to you" (as some of my tsuba have!).  

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

Thank you, Dan. 

I see. I'd rather have one in my hands. Not for a sake of collecting, but more like  handling...At this stage I am looking at more common inexpensive items. 

 

What do you think is the fair price on it ?

Although this thing is not expensive, I don't want to overpay for it.

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Vitaly,

 

I don't know what a fair price for the piece is.  I rarely spend over $100.00 U.S. for a tsuba.

 

Although, perhaps you should wait until more members tell you what they think of the tsuba.  It seems as if one member would recommend the bronze cast tsuba, not the iron one.

 

With respect,

Dan

[GoldenDrachen]

I am leaning towards the bronze one.

Besides, will try to study signature.

Got this book in the morning post.

 

[Brian]

Looks like mirror-maker tsuba

[Dan tsuba]

So, Vitaly-

 

Found some info on the web about the “mirror maker” tsuba.  These are two auctions listing the same (or very similar) tsuba to the one you showed.  Has some good information.  Just thought this might help!

 

https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/bronze-shin-no-maru-gata-tsuba-designed-by-a-mirr_25A4AF5832

 

https://www.artfoxlive.com/product/3930718.html

 

With respect,

Dan

[GoldenDrachen]

50 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

So, Vitaly-

 

Found some info on the web about the “mirror maker” tsuba.  These are two auctions listing the same (or very similar) tsuba to the one you showed.  Has some good information.  Just thought this might help!

 

https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/bronze-shin-no-maru-gata-tsuba-designed-by-a-mirr_25A4AF5832

 

https://www.artfoxlive.com/product/3930718.html

 

With respect,

Dan

Super! Thanks a lot!

[Curran]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Looks like mirror-maker tsuba

 

Correct.

Fairly classical later one. I'd go with the bronze one.

I confess I am surprised it is going for $100. Usually they grab a small multiple of that.

[GoldenDrachen]

Gentlemen!

 

Thank you all, so much!

Very helpful and educational.

I really appreciate your help.

Kindest regards

Vitaly

[Spartancrest]

I could fill a two hundred page book simply with this design of tsuba - so many of them my eye tends to skip them altogether in searches - not one of my favourites.

I do agree stay away from any of the iron versions they tend to be much worse than the various soft metal ones - Perhaps you would like a papered one? https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1082423157  Why it was awarded papers is beyond me - no signature and not particularly good work, I think they will paper anything these days.

 

NO surprise they have many for sale on Japanese auction sites.

https://www.jauce.com/auction/k1082422224

https://www.jauce.com/auction/k1082420831

https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1082350136

https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1080028678

[rematron]

Hi Vitaly,

 

I'm also pretty new to collecting tsuba and I like the hobby a lot.  Maybe a little bit too much.  If it were between the two I also would go for the soft metal one.  However, if you were considering buying both, you might also consider doubling your money and buying something not cast or buying the one @Spartancrestshowed that is papered.  I've found that the ones in my collection I like the best are the ones that took time to carve.  I hold them in my hand and am transported to the time where so much love and patience was given to the product of the artist.  Also, I would consider a chased tsuba to be more 'traditional' as per one of your prerequisites as opposed to cast.  But hey, if you like it, that is what really matters and I encourage you to follow your heart. 

 

Cheers,

[Brian]

Mirror maker tsuba are always cast, as that is how they made the mirrors. So in this case, they don't get judged the same was as other soft metal cast tsuba.
It's an ok piece...typical of the type and legit.

[Soshin]

These pieces never really interested me as a collector, and I have seen many throughout the years in many different collections. I do suggest you study and read more make your collection your own through your own efforts with help from a study group or club to learn more about and study fine examples of Japanese sword fittings. Posting well-reasoned and insightful questions NMB is also helpful. Having some know knowledge of Japanese, art, culture, and history will also help you build better understanding of greater context to what you learn about Japanese sword fittings. Having some field trips in Japan is also incredibly fun.      

[ROKUJURO]

KAGAMISHI TSUBA were made either by or in the style of mirror makers. There are even authentic ones made from mirrors:
(https://tsubakansho.com/2020/01/02/hollow-kagamishi-tsuba/). Original KAGAMISHI TSUBA date back even to the KAMAKURA era.

Authentic TSUBA were cheap at the end of the 19th century in Japan; one could buy a pile of them for a few Dollars. Only later, the industry found out that there was a market with tourists that came in greater numbers (as opposed to the very few tourists that could afford a voyage to Japan before the end of the 19th century) and had no knowledge about TOSOGU in general. Authentic ones were copied in large numbers and often used by Japanese sword dealers who swapped them with better ones that were on swords for sale (I was told this by an experienced collector).

In my humble opinion, the above TSUBA are bad copies from bad copies. They are both made of soft metal (I don't believe that one is cast iron unless tested with a magnet). Not collectible and of very low value.

[GoldenDrachen]

Dear Jean and David!

 

I totally understand your point. But!

Why should I deprive myself of enjoyment of slow immersion in this very deep "waters"?

In pursue of understanding the motifs, I will study Japanese legends...

To understand signatures I will study Japanese names...

To understand tosogu  I WISH to touch and observe personally, any piece that attracts my attention.

Besides I LOVE books, and all this brings me a lot of reading.

 

BTW thanks to Brian and his list of literature,  some very interesting manuscripts listed there

 

Kindest regards

Vitaly

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Vitaly,

 

Well stated!  Purchase what interests you.  I just bought a tsuba today that “called out to me”!  It was a little over $100.00 U.S.  Others may not like it but it is going to be a great part of my collection.

 

And you talked about studying Japanese legends shown on tsuba.  Figuring that stuff out is super interesting.  A book that I find of great use is “Legends in Japanese Art by Joly, Henri L.”

 

If you look around on the internet you can probably get a reproduction paperback (as I have) of the book for about $50.00 U.S. Has great information in it!

 

Keep collecting, keep studying, and most importantly “have fun”!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

2 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

If you look around on the internet you can probably get a reproduction paperback (as I have) of the book for about $50.00 U.S. Has great information in it!

Vitaly, why not try before you buy!  https://archive.org/details/legendinjapanese00jolyuoft/page/n3/mode/2up  Free PDF and a little quicker to find subjects.

Daikoku and Ebisu / Yebisu two of the Seven "Gods of Luck."

[GoldenDrachen]

10 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Vitaly, why not try before you buy!  https://archive.org/details/legendinjapanese00jolyuoft/page/n3/mode/2up  Free PDF and a little quicker to find subjects.

Daikoku and Ebisu / Yebisu two of the Seven "Gods of Luck."

Oh yeah, I have seen it. And I would like to have a hard copy now. 

[ROKUJURO]

Vitaly, 

 

you asked for advice but of course you do as you like! There are many ways to happiness!

[Spartancrest]

21 hours ago, GoldenDrachen said:

Vitaly

Hold your horses! How about a signed Daisho? https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1083741877  Starting bid is very low and comes with a daisho fitted box.

I see daisho of this pattern very rarely. 

[GoldenDrachen]

2 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Hold your horses! How about a signed Daisho? https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1083741877  Starting bid is very low and comes with a daisho fitted box.

I see daisho of this pattern very rarely. 

Sounds good. 

I will follow this auction.

Thank you for the tip!

[Spartancrest]

Even one in the V&A - https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O462027/tsuba/   Strange museum - it tells us almost nothing!

 

Another expensive "Buy it now" https://www.jauce.com/auction/g1019545638

Edited March 4, 2023 by Spartancrest
They keep turning up

[vajo]

[kissakai]

One from the Birmingham museum

Image from my book. Kagemishi (mirror maker) circa 1800

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

This guy jumped right out of the rim!

 

[GoldenDrachen]

On 3/3/2023 at 1:31 PM, GoldenDrachen said:

Sounds good. 

I will follow this auction.

Thank you for the tip!

Funny enough, I missed this auction! I was watching it all morning and then, when about 20 min left, got distracted and forgot about it. I think at the end it was sold for 5700 yen.

A sign perhaps? 

I think Soshin and Rokujuro  were right. I don't need it. 

[Spartancrest]

I realise the attraction has worn off on this design but another example has turned up that should keep people on their toes to avoid.

https://www.jauce.com/auction/u164746706

 

PS. Vitaly the auction - https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1083741877 was likely 'pulled" at the last second by the seller as it shows it has ended but had no bids [obviously it did have bids as it had a starting price much lower than the one it ended with] - sellers on some sites can stop their auctions from continuing if they don't think they are getting the right amount they want - it will likely be relisted at a later date or on another site - we can only guess what starting price the seller will set next time. [Makes getting a bargain just that much more difficult!]