NOTCHES USED AS ASSEMBLY GUIDES?

[Guest Simon R]

I believe this subject has been addressed on some other threads but I thought it might be interesting to show an example I have of a habaki and nakago both similarly notched - presumably to assist assembly in the fittings workshop?

 

The sword is a Sue-Seki tanto and the silver-foiled habaki has three notches on either side of the flat plane which contacts the tsuka (and is thus hidden) whilst the top, omote edge of the nakago has two groups of three notches.

(Please see below)

 

Simon

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Simon,

Do you have an era or age the fittings were done?  Is this older?

[Mark]

i have seen similar before. it seems to occur on blades made and mounted in late 1800's and early 1900s (in my experience)

[robinalexander]

Funny you should mention that Simon @SRDRowson I recently acquired a Type 98 mumei, possibly gendaito with nice mounts including samegawa saya and on close inspection it has 10 notches on the nakago and 10 on the habaki.  The only marks or stamps.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting. These seem to be something different from the Roman numeral hashmarks.

[robinalexander]

16 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Interesting. These seem to be something different from the Roman numeral hashmarks.

Yes Bruce,  I have seen plenty of Roman but never simply 10 x 10 ... probably little doubt there are still assembly numbers to match blade and habaki (?)

Rob

[Bruce Pennington]

Found similar marks on a dirk posted on Warrelics HERE.  Dirks don't have assembly numbers on fittings, so it must have another meaning.

[Brian]

Pretty sure they are always assembly numbers. Even if the blade is going into shirasaya or military fittings, they have to have some form of markings to tell them what blade goes where. Even the dirks must have a wooden core? Maybe they need to keep track of which saya is for what blade. Markings could be inside the split saya core or somewhere else we don't see it. Or just the number of the blade to differentiate it from the others on the bench.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

they have to have some form of markings

Notches in steel seems fairly elaborate when a pencil, paint, or chalk mark could accomplish the same goal far easier. Unless the marks need to be maintained through some quenching or washing process that would destroy other types of marks??

John C.

[Tensho]

Mostly have seen them on Gunto which I guess would make sense considering workshops were  probably dealing with hundreds at a time. 

 

I have had a couple Yari with the notches as well. Those seem stranger to me considering the ebu holds all the fittings 99% of the time and I have yet to see any fittings with notches. Would make more sense to just attach a tag to the mekugi-ana. 

[robinalexander]

Good input.  Hopefully the more we look the more we will find and one day we might find out for sure 

[Guest Simon R]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:21 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Simon,

Do you have an era or age the fittings were done?  Is this older?

Hi Bruce, 

Apologies for the delay in replying.

The blade has NBTHK Hozen certification as Sue-Seki and the original mounts could have been of any period between the 18th and 19th centuries in my inexpert estimation. They were pretty much shot when I bought it so, apart from the habaki, I had the tanto remounted here in Japan many years ago.

[Bruce Pennington]

So, it's possible the marks were placed there originally, long ago, or they could have been put there when re-fitted more recently?

[Guest Simon R]

6 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

So, it's possible the marks were placed there originally, long ago, or they could have been put there when re-fitted more recently?

I would go with the former theory because the patination is the same as the rest of the nakago. Perhaps the habaki maker copied the original marks when refitting?

[Shuko]

I have three nakago with 3,3 and 4 distinct notch cuts on their edges, often wondered what they were for. These notches are all on the upper right hand side only a bit higher than the mekugi-ana but well below the habaki area.

 

Have one tanto with three very distinct circle chisel punches high up on the nakago which I assume is telling the generation of that smith. 

 

There is an awful lot to learn and I feel like a tadpole in a vast Nihonto pond. 

[John C]

Here is an example from a different thread, notches on the seppa matching the saya.

John C.