Ronin question

[Ken-Hawaii]

 What differentiated a farmer with a sword from a ronin? Assume that the sword got picked up from a battlefield, & the farmer somehow got enough training to live through his first battles. Could he then be considered as ronin?

 

It's not like someone issued permits to carry a blade, so how could a Samurai tell the difference? It wasn't legit to carry a sword without permission, but whose? There were lots of former ashigaru who had at least some weapons training, so what kept them from "promoting" themselves? Many ronin were hired by Daimyo to train their troops, which could advance them to gokenin, or even goshi, so there had to be some level of control.

 

Consider Musashi. Although he was the son of a Samurai, & allowed to wear a sword, how could anyone tell that a 13-year-old bruiser was legitimate? I guess that after winning 60+ battles, he self-defined, but what about his equally-hulking neighbor, who was a farmer's son? 

[ROKUJURO]

Ken,

you have certainly watched "Seven SAMURAI" by KUROSAWA. After what I have learned after seeing the film the first time in the early sixties, I believe in many cases it was as you describe. Some non-SAMURAI-born fighters might have even risen to official status after a successful battle. 

Just my presumption.

[Guest Simon R]

Hi Ken,

 

Both the commander and vice-commander of the Shinsengumi - Kondō Isami and Hijikata Toshizō, respectively - were born of farming stock, not samurai. They eventually achieved that social position by their training prowess in dojos (admittance of which was not limited only to the sons of bushi in the late Edo/Bakumatsu Period) and the turbulent times in which they lived. Like the earlier Sengoku Jidai, farmers could (and were presumably often encouraged or even forced to) take up arms - a situation which only supposedly ended when Toyotomi Hideyoshi (again, originally a peasant) created a rigidly fixed social hierarchy intended to prevent others of humble beginnings from climbing the same meteoric ladder which he himself had.

 

So, to attempt to answer your question, it seems that the definition of 'ronin' varied greatly from era to era and always at the fickle whims of war and fate.

 

Best regards,

Simon

[PNSSHOGUN]

One of the classic tropes of the Jidai-geki is 'real' Samurai are quickly able to recognize the fake ones just from how they hold themselves and talk. So perhaps a Samurai from the high streets of Edo could likely pick out a yokel from the sticks hauling two swords from a mile away.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I can see Hideyoshi being gradually promoted by Nobunaga, but at least he was a known factor. It's the Kondo Isami's that make me wonder if the Shogun & Daimyo really had a clue about who was wandering their domain.

 

Somebody housed & fed these guys, so was the society really so rigid & fixed? It sure seems that, if you had the cojones, you could promote yourself, starting around Sengoku Jidai, by picking up a sword, & learning how to use it. Does it matter if you're a yokel, if you can beat the crap out of your latest opponent?

[Guest Simon R]

21 minutes ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

I can see Hideyoshi being gradually promoted by Nobunaga, but at least he was a known factor. It's the Kondo Isami's that make me wonder if the Shogun & Daimyo really had a clue about who was wandering their domain.

 

Somebody housed & fed these guys, so was the society really so rigid & fixed? It sure seems that, if you had the cojones, you could promote yourself, starting around Sengoku Jidai, by picking up a sword, & learning how to use it. Does it matter if you're a yokel, if you can beat the crap out of your latest opponent?

It was the daimyo of Aizu who put the forerunner of the Shinsengumi together, Ken and he bankrolled the group until its end. As they were acting in the name of the Tokugawa shogun, I think it is also safe to assume that he was fully in the know regarding their membership and actions.

 

I guess that, when you are at risk of losing power and desperate, you will use anyone available as cannon fodder and throw them in the front line. One only has to look at at the present day and Putin forcing old men with heart conditions to fight in Ukraine.

[Rivkin]

Today's Japan is sort of classless they don't understand the difference between class and wealth, but until the latter days of Muromachi being proper bushi meant distinctive origin - you had a genealogy going back to someone enlisted as gokenin by the Shogun, someone of proper northern heritage. They saw themselves different from the rest of Japan and the rest of Japan saw them as a distinctive race of northern (eastern) barbarians.

In Edo period it was still the genealogy but also the language and manners would be different. It does not apply to American English, but if you encounter a more class based society there are significant divergences in the spoken language.

At the same time towards the end of Edo period in Shogunate's territory in particular a motivated peasant could be better educated, martial aspects included compared to a fullbred samurai.

Unlike the tozama Damiyo, Hatamoto quietly dismissed most of their retinue during the financial crisis of 1700s, and Shogun was forced to rely on more provincial or mercenary-class-diverse forces.

It was not nearly the same on Choshu or Satsuma side where samurai were far too numerous to eagerly accept the entrance from other classes.

 

[Jacques D.]

During the EDO era the Japanese society was under the caste system. Warriors (samurai), peasant craftsmen, merchants and hinin. A samurai without a master (ronin) remained a samurai. One was a samurai from father to son but during the Bakumatsu for pecuniary reasons there were "arrangements" with the system