Are these parts repro's?

[John C]

Hello:

I would like to ask for your opinions on these parts. I do not have enough experience looking at these to say for sure. My suspicions are these are all reproductions, however I would appreciate everyone's take on them.

The ashi has flower stamen that are not staggered.

The tsuba just looks like a rough casting and too shallow (it varies from 6.03 to 6.98mm in thickness).

Thank you for taking a look.

John C.

[PNSSHOGUN]

All original. 

[John C]

13 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

All original. 

John:

Thank you for the response. These came off of a mantetsu I just picked up, which I know has a rewrapped tsuka and reproduction menuki so I started to question the other parts as well. The Ashi hanger bothered me particularly as it doesn't look like others I had seen.

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

They do vary some.  I recall them being discussed on a thread a while back, because of the shape of the top knob.

[John C]

16 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

They do vary some.

Agreed. I too remember a discussion but I couldn't find it. F&G shows some variation, however they are line drawings and not much use.

John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

5 hours ago, John C said:

John:

Thank you for the response. These came off of a mantetsu I just picked up, which I know has a rewrapped tsuka and reproduction menuki so I started to question the other parts as well. The Ashi hanger bothered me particularly as it doesn't look like others I had seen.

John C. 

John

Can you share the photos of the rest of your Mantetsu？

[John C]

58 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Can you share the photos of the rest of your Mantetsu

Sure. I can put them on the mantetsu thread. We have the serial number recorded already.

John C.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It would seem some of the Koshirae for Koa Isshin Mantetsu were made in Manchuria, they have a very distinctive Kabutogane.

[John C]

John:

I have seen the Manchurian version somewhere. But I think the kabutogane for this sword is a rewrapped replacement of a type 98. Note how the sword was originally sold in July 2022 at auction with a cord or cane wrap. Some time over the past 7 months before my purchase, it had been "refurbished." 

John C.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yes, that's the Kabutogane. Recently there was some documents that confirmed that the mounts were being made along with the blades.

[Kiipu]

2 hours ago, John C said:

But I think the kabutogane for this sword is a rewrapped replacement of a type 98.

 

Could it be the other way around?  In that the cord wrap was over the original fittings and protected them all these years.  Did you ask @mdiddy about this as he was the seller the second time around?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Thomas is right, all the fittings are correct and the variation that I mentioned. The handle being rewrapped isn't a big deal, although whoever did the wrap delivered a very poor job with the finishing knot.

[John C]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

seller the second time around?

I did. He was unaware of the change. He purchased the sword with the green ito wrap already applied. We actually discussed the sword at length. 

John C.

[John C]

5 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Yes, that's the Kabutogane.

Okay. Now I see what you mean (I think). The way the ito is tied around the ishizuki?

John C.

 

[John C]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

In that the cord wrap was over the original fittings and protected them all these years.

Thomas:

This picture illustrates why I believe the tsuka has been rewrapped (or I suppose replaced). The section on the right is the original condition. You can see the same and cord wrap with exposed chuso. The section on the left is the way it is now with the green ito covering the same and the chuso.

John C. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

That part of the Ito should be on the obverse, along with the poor end knot and shape of the diamonds this points to a cheap amateur wrap.

[Kiipu]

John C, thanks for the clarification.  I think the handle fitting are original but maybe a rewrap and replacement menuki? John (PNSSHOGUN) is correct about the ito wrap starting on the wrong side and this reinforces the notion it is a rewrap done in the States.

 

Below is a link to another 29th series and the only other one that has the knot tied around the kabutogane.

Imperial Japanese Army Officer Sword JS23

[John C]

Thomas:

Thank you for the link. I noticed the Ashi on that saya is the same design as mine as well.

33 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

a rewrap and replacement menuki

Would it be worth trying to get the tsuka rewrapped by a professional or just leave alone? I know Bruce has some references.

John C.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Worth getting re-wrapped for sure, you will enjoy the sword more knowing it was done by a professional.

[Geraint]

Just to add, the existing wrap is incorrect in that the crossovers of the ito all go in the same direction rather than alternating.  As well as the other stuff.

 

All the best.

[Bruce Pennington]

Depends on if you have the $3-400.  If so, either way, you have a re-wrapped tsuka.  One way is poorly done, and Chinese in style.  The other way will be beautiful, and WWII correct.  I think you'll be glad you did.

[Kiipu]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:28 PM, John C said:

Note how the sword was originally sold in July 2022 at auction with a cord or cane wrap.

 

That picture is similar to a Mantetsu sword discussed over at WRF.  Maybe they are one and the same?

Shin Gunto - Koa Isshin Mantetsu?

[John C]

Yes. They are the exact same one. The masking tape on the saya and the scratches on the blade match up perfectly. That's how I noticed the cord wrap to begin with.

8 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

That picture is similar to a Mantetsu sword discussed over at WRF.

John C.

[Kiipu]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:40 PM, John C said:

I can put them on the Mantetsu thread. We have the serial number recorded already.

 

Cross-Reference

Mantetsu 29th Series ヤ 三五三

Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey, Page 33