Opinions on the tsuba.

[GoldenDrachen]

Hello everyone

I am looking at this one, it is for sale at the moment. 

May I ask your options please.

 

Regards

Vitaly 

[Geraint]

Dear Vitaly.

 

The question is why are you looking at it?  Look somewhere else, quick!

 

All the best.

[Brian]

Run

[GoldenDrachen]

Thank you, all!

Got it. 

[Spartancrest]

Vitaly, a Soten or Hikone style guard - cast in 'soft' metal. Does not appear to have been mounted, the seppa-dai rough and casting seams in some of the openings. No signs of Izarae 'finishing off' or reworking. They didn't bother putting an unbelievable signature on it. Probably made for export or a practice sword. [IMO]

[GoldenDrachen]

36 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Vitaly, a Soten or Hikone style guard - cast in 'soft' metal. Does not appear to have been mounted, the seppa-dai rough and casting seams in some of the openings. No signs of Izarae 'finishing off' or reworking. They didn't bother putting an unbelievable signature on it. Probably made for export or a practice sword. [IMO]

I had mixed feelings about this one. Thank you for an in depth clarification.

 

 

[GoldenDrachen]

I hope I am not too annoying, but since we are talking about this thing anyway.

Could someone, please, point at obvious or perhaps not so red flags on this particular one.  For me, it is just very, very important to get as much info as possible.

Many thanks in advance!

 

I have here bigger pictures

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Vitaly!  Nice meeting you!

 

I have only been collecting tsuba for about 5 years.  I can only afford low cost tsuba. 

 

So, over the years, I have found certain “tells” (signs) that I use to discern if I think a tsuba is authentic and is a tsuba that was made in at least the Edo period.

 

First, I like the tsuba you pictured.  If it is cast, I believe it is well done (and probably hand worked to some degree - hey members - just my opinion!).  Also, I notice that the rim (mimi) appears to have been “hand worked”.  So that is nice!

 

But one of the signs (or tells) that I look for in a tsuba is if it appears to have been mounted (and thus actually used on a sword).

 

How I determine that is if there are tagane-ato (punch marks) around the seppa-dai.  What is even better is if the nakago-ana has sekigane (soft metal “plugs”) in it. 

Now, not all tsuba need to have those punch marks or plugs to have actually been used on a sword. 

 

The tsuba could just have been a perfect fit for the blade “as is”, or was specifically made for a particular blade and then never re-mounted onto another blade.

 

But, nowadays, it seems that even the “fake” tsuba have some of those “tells” to them.  It is getting much more difficult over the years to discern “real” from “fake” just using pictures listed on the sellers’ sites.

 

Anyway, I just thought this information may be of use to you!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[GoldenDrachen]

29 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello Vitaly!  Nice meeting you!

 

I have only been collecting tsuba for about 5 years.  I can only afford low cost tsuba. ......

 

Anyway, I just thought this information may be of use to you!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

Hi Dan! Thank you so much! Your information is more than helpful! 

And that exactly what I am after -  trying to develop skills to distinguish "real"  from "not real", or more like "antique"  against the "modern repro", (detailed understanding   will come with experience and learning.)

 

I am familiar with the process, something similar I have been trough when started to collect Iron Crosses....

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again Vitaly!

 

So, there are other “tells” I use in determining if a “low cost” tsuba is an actual Edo period tsuba.

 

Sometimes, the hitsu-ana (side holes of the tsuba) are filled with a metal filler (sekigane).  That may show me that the original tsuba was altered or “customized” by its new owner (he didn’t need one or both of those “side holes” for the kozuka or kogai side tools on the saya (scabbard)).

 

Have included a picture so you can see what I am talking about (tsuba with tiger).  This particular tsuba is not “low cost” – at least not for me!  This tsuba is hand forged and hand worked.  And I wanted to give you an idea of an actual hitsu-ana “filler”.  Also notice the sekigane filler at the top of the nakago-ana and some tagane-ato punch marks on the seppa-dia (as discussed in my previous post).

 

Again, many fakes now have something that appear that the hitsu-ana were filled.  But it is just an attempt to deceive.  Have also included a picture of “fake” filled hitsu-ana (tusba with dragon).  This tsuba is cast along with the "fake" hitsu-ana filler.

 

Hope this helps!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Ford Hallam]

Hello Vitaly

 

 

I see no evidence of casting, all the inner walls are perfectly neatly finished up by filing, the rim/mimi is particularly nicely finished and traces of gilding can still be seen.

If you examine the surfaces of the carvings you will see that, apart from areas of legitimate corrosion/verdigris, the metal has bee well formed, polished and crisply defined.

The seppa-dai planes are actually decently flat and show no signs of shrinkage nor rounding of the edges, which would be indicative of a casting.

 

One side does however exhibit surface corrosion, most likely caused by a galvanic interaction between the tsuba and a seppa, being of differing alloy composition. The tsuba is most likely not pure copper while the seppa probably were, this makes for a battery sort of set up in corrosion terms. The strong green verdigris in evidence also suggests that sort of suitably corrosive environment.

 

To be clear, this is NOT a lost treasure  but it is a perfectly genuine middling example of a Hikone/Soten style guard. It's obviously seen better days and wouldn't be worth restoring from a commercial point of view but please don't use this as an example of what a cheap cast fake might look like. 

 

As you appear new to tosogu you may find one of my YouTube film series' of use and interest. Tosogu Insights is a 'up close and personal. examination of various interesting and fine pieces of tosogu.

You'll find them here

 

This one we filmed some time ago deals with a pretty decent Soten example in iron. 

 

If you care to browse the rest of my channel you'll find over 150 films covering all aspects of classical Japanese metalwork.

 

Welcome to the field and good luck

 

regards

 

Ford 

[Peter Bleed]

I just read - and enjoyed ! - this thread. Thank you all! I knew the answer right from the first image, but the discussion of worthy. And then we got to listen to Ford and see some stuff that was worth looking at. NMB at its best! We all have had the opportunity to look at/buy/swap Soten guards. This thread shows us that even if we don't like Soten stuff,  those experiences are not be wasted!

Peter

 

[Brian]

Gotta admit, I didn't see that coming and also thought it a write-off.

I wonder what it will look like after a gentle wash with soap and water? Something else I have seen on fittings and other items in a collection for decades....tobacco!
Seen far too many antiques covered in a layer of thick baked on nicotine from years of sitting in the mancave where the old collector smoked for 20 years. That stuff is hard and difficult to remove. And completely obscures inlay etc.
Not saying this is the case, just that it's something to look out for.

[rematron]

This was an enlightening thread. When I first saw the tsuba I thought it was decent carving but corroded. Then I went through the subsequent comments and thought to myself “I have a lot to learn if I couldn’t tell this was cast.” Obviously I do have an immense amount to learn but I’m proud of myself for initially seeing the tsuba as chased. Thank you @Ford Hallamfor taking time to express your experienced opinion. 

[Spartancrest]

Sorry still not totally convinced - the rim edges are trying to replicate a fukurin but it is not a separate piece. 

These areas also give me misgivings. Wish we could ring up the maker and ask some questions. 

[Ford Hallam]

12 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

the rim edges are trying to replicate a fukurin

 

he he, it's not trying very hard though , especially as Soten type work very rarely features fukurin.