Received in a trade. Wakizashi in Shirasaya

[AlphaRaider]

I picked up this sword last weekend at a local Colorado gun show from a vendor. I finally got a chance to get some pictures taken to post online and see what everyones opinion was.

 

I don't know much from the owner before me other then he believed it was Edo period. ???

 

I'll get some measurements this Monday and post them. 

 

pics...

 

 

-J. Hoff

 

 

[AlphaRaider]

pics 2.

 

 

J. Hoff

[AlphaRaider]

pics 3.

 

 

[ChrisW]

Just looking at the way its been cut down, I would guess its older than the Edo period. Looks koto to me.

[PNSSHOGUN]

If the Hi are original, where they start may have been close to the original Hamachi.

[Alex A]

Clear pic of the boshi would be useful

[vajo]

Looks like a Koto piece.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Jonathan,

congratulations!

It does not happen too often that someone is so lucky to find 

- an authentic blade 
- in good condition and polish
- probably even KOTO
- in good SHIRA-SAYA

hopefully at a reasonable price!

Take well care of it!

[Rivkin]

Can't see the boshi. If its koto the question is what it is, and there is not much fitting the bill except for Omiya, but the blade does not look that early.

[AlphaRaider]

6 hours ago, Alex A said:

Clear pic of the boshi would be useful

I will do that for you this evening.

[Franco D]

Kantei begins with evaluation of shape. Where is/are that/those image(s)? Get the time period wrong and you could find yourself completely lost in attempting to figure out the answer of what this sword could be.

 

Regards,

[vajo]

Didn't know what is wrong with someones mind but that these are not good manners.

[AlphaRaider]

36 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Kantei begins with evaluation of shape. Where is/are that/those image(s)? Get the time period wrong and you could find yourself completely lost in attempting to figure out the answer of what this sword could be.

 

Regards,

 Well, when I have time in all honesty. I'm working a show this weekend.  I've got to set up gear, lights, computer work.  Its a few hour process. These are not cell phone pictures, it's a bit time consuming to get them done in a acceptable maner. But I can get those pictures done shortly. Either tonight or on Monday.

 

Thanks.

[Franco D]

No worries. 

 

Hmm, I wonder how many additional images needed requests there have been on the NMB?

Perhaps another permanent subheading in one or more of the forums on "how to request information about ....... ," including a description of what images should be posted?

 

Regards,

[rematron]

Agreed that a lot of frustration and bickering could be avoided by something like that. Also it would be easier to learn without having to wade through the swamp of back and forth requests for pictures and arguments based on speculations. 

[AlphaRaider]

Apologies yall, I figured I had taken some of the more notable parts of the sword.

 

If someone would gladly post a list of pictures that would make this simple or a thread that I may read so I may make it easier for everyone viewing this with the appropriate pictures.

 

-J. Hoff

[ChrisW]

2 hours ago, vajo said:

Didn't know what is wrong with someones mind but that these are not good manners.

 

 

 

There. Something to countermand it! Though don't know why they'd do so either.

[Curran]

@AlphaRaider

yall back at you, from Atlanta.

 

Your images are quite good, and the initial impression is of a Koto blade probably from one of the Bizen schools.

 

Given that we are dealing with 800-900 years of works, the checklist of things to review can be quite long.

Example:  Things like the kissaki (angular area at the tip of the blade) can reveal a fair amount from very little data, and rule for/against certain schools.

 

Just be patient and post photos. There is also a shinsa (knowledgeable panel of Japanese coming over for an evaluation process) in Chicago soon.

My focus is far more on fittings, but it does look like you probably got yourself a very nice blade in trade.

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, AlphaRaider said:

or a thread that I may read so I may make it easier for everyone viewing this with the appropriate pictures.

 

Suggested images: (feel free to add on)

 

1. Full profile image of the omote and ura sides of the sword including the nakago, habaki and tsuka removed.

2. Images showing the full kissaki and boshi both sides.

3. Images showing each third of the blade plus nakago on both sides of the sword, including the ha machi. 

4. Above images of mune-machi-nakago, ko shinogi.

5. Close ups of any areas of concern or question. 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

[Franco D]

3 hours ago, vajo said:

Didn't know what is wrong with someones mind but that these are not good manners.

 

 

Please excuse my manners for casting a down vote, especially without explanation. The reason for the down vote wasn't because you expressed your opinion which you have the right to make, but rather for, like me, making it without giving explanation or reasoning or giving a supporting argument why this sword is one thing and not another. What makes this sword Koto, especially when the shape of the sword has yet to be shown? We have to remember that people are coming here to the NMB for learning and educational purposes. Personally, I think it is irresponsible to lead someone on without clear explanation or reasoning, and that includes myself. Express opinion, fine. But, why?

 

Regards,

[Rivkin]

I am sort of convinced its Edo period, despite the nakago's patina and rather generic sugata which can be mid Kamakura for all that matters.

Rounded choji reaching the shinogi can be Fukuoka Ichimonji, but the choji would not look that uniform. Actually that's my main issue with any old valuation - its too repetative, too perfect, too much like oshigata in steel.

Can be Kagemitsu school, but generally hamon would not be that wide.

Overall everything pre-Nambokucho, Kanemune etc. you would expect much greater variation within the choji and from choji to choji, strong utsuri (maybe did not enter the photograph but I doubt it) etc. etc.

Omiya is a decent fit, many examples have large grained mokume hada, no utsuri and rounded Kagemitsu-ish choji, so there is a chance. They also tend towards a bright and easy to photograph nioi-guchi as here.

My problem is Omiya's choji are very seldom that periodic, especially periodic-grouped. You always see a distorted choji here and there, tobiyaki, squarish-Kanemitsu like choji etc. Going all the way to shinogi is also highly uncommon, especially with broad groupings like here.

 

Periodic groupings with very well defined and repetative choji are Edo period thing. Also these choji are more incenstivie to direction (try photograph Kanemune from two different angles and you will not see much similarity, here the hamon is sort of similar from every angle), nioi-guchi is kind of drawn by pencil together with ashi etc, there is not that much happening within choji themselves.

You see them in Ishido school from time to time. With them boshi would most likely be wide and very straight.

But I would argue this is high end shinshinto.

Koyama Munetsugu, Unju Korekazu or the like.

 

And someone patinated the nakago to make it look quite old.

[AlphaRaider]

I Just finished taking some new images on white backgrounds. This time I used 36in Octoboxes for diffusers on the strobes so we will see how they turn out. I will be posting them shortly.

[AlphaRaider]

updated pictures.

 

 

-J. Hoff

[AlphaRaider]

updated pics 2

 

 

-J. Hoff

[Rivkin]

Nice katana.

It wants to be late Nambokucho by sugata. Kasane seems too thick (by eye without the measurement) and the choji still too periodic and nie is too concentrated on top.

Ichimai boshi in hakkikake is also very rare and in Nambokucho constraints one to something like Sa which its not.

It can be Momoyama though, nie foaming at the top portion of hamon plus the koto-ish hada would be a good fit and they did Nambokucho sugata a lot.

This one requires some thinking.

[PNSSHOGUN]

At just about 24" Nagasa, this would be on the borderline of Katana. Nice looking sword regardless, worth sending for Shinsa.

[Franco D]

Based upon these images the shape (curvature) of this sword suggests Muromachi period imo.  

 

The following information should also be posted as well in addition to the length and overall length; moto-haba, saki-haba, moto-kasane, saki-kasane, sori, length of nakago, nakago-yasuri, also the width of the nakago at its widest point (kasane). 

 

I have to wonder if the hi are ato-bori. Nakago looks o-suriage.

 

Regards,

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think this blade is not really old. Squared Mekugiana is an very early thing but it is here the highest Mekugiana. 
The futatsubi seems later added or the blade is not really Suriage in my Opinion. 
I just don’t see the typical signs of reworking the Nakago.
I think it looks like Koyama Munetsugu. 

[Stephen]

I think you made a very good trade.

How good we really dont know. Did you traid a gun for it.

You've had enough requests for photos.

I find white background is the hardest for me to pick out boshi and other features. 

Ill get on laptop and expand to see if i can see more.

 

Off topic perhaps a confused emoji would be better than the down vote.

Personally I'd rather see a thumbs down than have a down vote . 

[vajo]

13 hours ago, Franco D said:

 

 

Please excuse my manners for casting a down vote, especially without explanation. The reason for the down vote....

 

Your reason is irrelevant for me. My guess was Koto and i didn't need a judgement of my guess. I didn't excuse it. 

Btw: I was the only one who recieved a downvote from you. That shows me that not my answer was important for you but only my presence in this topic. Your excuse is for the liter bin.