Samurai Sword arrived without papers

[MapleStaple]

I recently won an antique katana on ebay. Despite having its paperwork/torokusho clearly listed in the images, it arrived without any authentication papers.

 

Do you know what paperwork a registered antique Katana exported from Japan is supposed to come with and if it's normal for it to ship without any authentication papers?

 

Here is the listing for reference:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255951163220

 

Sincere thanks in advance!

[Bugyotsuji]

By Japanese law the registration (torokusho) certificate must be surrendered before export. It is not a certificate of authenticity though anyway. (I would take a screenshot photo of it off the screen now if I were you. Nice to have anyway.)

 

If you need such authentification, you will have to send it off to 'shinsa'.

 

The notes do say that some of the photos are for illustration purposes only. You are very lucky if it got through customs with no other paperwork.

[MapleStaple]

Just now, Bugyotsuji said:

By Japanese law the registration certificate must be surrendered before export. It is not a certificate of authenticity though anyway. (I would take a photo of it off the screen now if I were you.)

 

If you need such authentification, you will have to send it off to 'shinsa'.

 

The notes do say that some of the photos are for illustration purposes only. You are very lucky if it got through customs with no other paperwork.

Should I be worried about authenticity/value? Isn't not having any paperwork a bad thing?

[Bugyotsuji]

If you come to sell and the buyer says "prove it!", you can say "the blade speaks for itself".

 

If you do not feel confident in your own knowledge and understanding of Japanese sword blades, then send it off to the established authorities. It will take time and money for a certificate to be issued. 

 

A real sword connoisseur does not need paperwork, like someone who understands fine wines. 99% of the population feels better with a certificate, even if there is little information other than "This is Guaranteed to be the Real McCoy" in Japanese.

This is why we study. Knowledge is power.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Al,

Any sword with a big name signature (Hizen Tadayoshi in this case), offered on ebay without a paper from a respected organization, by a selller in Japan, is almost 100% certain to be gimei (signature forgery). If the seller thought the mei were real he would have had it papered by the NBTHK and it could have been worth tens of thousands of dollars. You own a real Japanese sword with a fake signature and there is little to be gained by sending it back to Japan for a paper it can't get.

The price you paid is not outrageous for what you received but, if your aim was to own a quality sword with a true signature and paper, you need to stay away from ebay and deal with someone you know and trust; ebay is a snake pit for beginners.

Grey

[MapleStaple]

Grey,

 

I truly appreciate the response. How bad do you think I got fleeced? 

[Rivkin]

I see most likely gimei sword with no mentioning of authentication papers in the description.

[Bugyotsuji]

However, even if the signature is gimei, what was stated there seems to be true. You bought what was offered. I am guessing that the dealer made the effort to package and send this, and took a profit as recompense. If you got a koto Japanese sword, regardless of signature, you've done better than many. Often (but not always) a signature will be added to a blade that already has something going for it.

 

How 'badly' you got burned depends on what your original expectation was. If a bubble has just popped in your mind and you now want to sell it, then see what a US dealer will offer you for it. The difference between that and what you paid will be the size of the burn. Some folks might like to hold on to it for a bit, and learn from this first step, and find out exactly what can be read in the steel.

[MapleStaple]

Thanks Piers. Yea I mean the blade and hamon look nice (to my entirely untrained eye). I just panicked a bit when I saw that there was no paperwork to certify anything. I mean the saya and fittings are clearly new, but I just don't know what I'm looking at as far as being able to authenticate the blade as far as being from a koto sword (not that document's are everything).

What does being a gimei do to the value of a sword?

As an aside, this is the first forum I've been to where everyone (so far) is exceedingly smart and thoughtful.

 

Well done guys!

[Rivkin]

Its worth what people wanted to pay for a fully mounted blade which can be quite useful in a martial arts setting...

The fittings appear to be modern except maybe for menuki.

The blade was suggested to be koto but there are arguments both for and against it. can be early shinto.

There are open fukure and ware, overall forging is sort of ok. Its a martial arts blade.

 

I would add - all Japan-based sellers on ebay specialize on selling en masse blades with many condition issues.

Their prices are often ok, but usually these are not collectible examples.

[John C]

2 hours ago, MapleStaple said:

How bad do you think I got fleeced? 

Al:

I don't think you got ripped off based on what you paid. It may not have been what you wanted but after some study, you may find the blade is a nice older blade made by a Japanese craftsman. Don't worry about the papers. And don't worry about the false signature. That is extremely common and was common hundreds of years ago. Enjoy the blade and remember that you either pay for a blade or you pay for a lesson...there is no losing. 

John C.

[Brian]

Always remember that a gimei signature doesn't mean the sword is fake. It's a real antique Japanese sword. Just not made by the guy on the tang. Gimei is very very common and doesn't speak for the quality. If that sword had papers, you would have paid several times what you did. There are no other papers for a Japanese sword. So you got a real Japanese sword that is gimei like many of us own.
Also, don't get into the age trap. Age doesn't mean quality. There are 1600's and 1700's swords far better than many 1500's ones. Age isn't important unless you collect a certain era. Judge by the quality, not the age.

[almeister]

Was going to offer some information towards this thread 

However  , recently all I get on my mobile app through Google is blotched vision on most threads ??

Alan.K

[almeister]

BTW

The information is general  and has " Nothing " to do with this particular blade !

AlanK

[Jon]

Would not seem to be a bad price to be honest, a grand for a Nihonto in Polish that you can study is not so bad, even if it’s not a great quality blade there will be lots to find out and discover. the fun is all in finding out about your sword.  So you were not fleeced, maybe paid a bit of the odds many-be not depending on the quality. All in all it’s better to buy a sword in your hand that you can see and decide you like than one of the internet.

[MapleStaple]

Thanks Jonathan. Was more like 2 grand ($1,800)

[singh13]

I remember seeing this sword on ebay as well. I think I bid on it but once it went over a grand I gave up on it. It is a very long blade, however, something very desirable to me and many others

[Tensho]

Its always best to tread carefully with these sellers.

 

For instance the seller you bought from, claims to be a member of NBTHK but I haven't heard of anyone who knows him, list 95% of his blades as pre koto even ones that are glaringly not and hardly ever has any with new origami.