Teppo barrels- Swelling at breech?

[Malae5]

Hi all,

 

I'm learning more about teppo barrels and their construction and am interested if anyone has thoughts on different types of barrels.  Generally, I tend to see barrels that have less swollen breeches than one tends to find on other Eastern matchlock barrels (i.e. Malaysia, China, and India).

 

I have seen some teppo barrels with swollen breeches but generally with a more gentler swelling than one tends to find on continental Asian matchlocks.  

 

Were there teppo barrels that were closer to the east Asian construction with swollen breeches? Also, were there particular schools associated with that kind of construction? 

 

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

 

Regards

Gene

[Brian]

Just confirming you mean the breech and not the muzzle?

[DTM72]

  On 2/14/2023 at 6:30 PM, Brian said:

Just confirming you mean the breech and not the muzzle?

Expand  

 

I was wondering the same thing.

[Malae5]

Yes, the breech and not the muzzle. 

[Brian]

Can't say I've seen that. Have an example pic?

[Bugyotsuji]

I have a Japanese cannon which has a swelling at the breech end. This is probably because it is made of cannon bronze, gaining extra thickness where the chamber (initial explosion) is. I would have to say though, that this is an exception, reminding me somewhat of some Western cannon.

 

Most Tanegashima have their maximum thickness at the breech, but gradually grow slimmer towards the muzzle, with some swamping to be seen, but generally they present a long straight appearance with no 'swelling'. I suppose it is possible that some very early guns from before makibari binding was invented needed a swollen breech for extra security... (?) but in all my years I have never consciously seen an example.

[Malae5]

This is quite interesting.  Here are a few examples of teppo culled from the web where there is noticeable but quite slight swelling.  I think the tendency is that the larger barrels have more of a strengthened breech than the longer thinner barrels.  I can't really find any examples with swollen breeches that are of the longer form. 

 

I also attach some images of the Malaysian and Chinese matchlocks which generally do have swollen breeches. 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The bottom two above have what you are calling ‘swollen’ breeches? 
Can you ring the swelling you describe on any others? 
Do you know Arthur Goetz? He is very much into the science of recreating Tanegashima barrels, inter alia.

[Malae5]

Thank you.

 

I think you can see pretty clearly in the top two photos especially, as the barrels gently slope until it reaches (seemingly) the thicket point. It's also possible that the way it's seated in the stock is deceptive and it doesn't swell but I tend to think these do swell gently.  

 

I'm mainly interested in whether this type of form was attributed to particular regions or barrel makers, or even if these can be attributed to earlier periods or not, or even if there is some cross-cultural influence on the barrel forms. 

 

I would love to see some pictures of some of the earliest known and documented teppo to see what the earliest barrel forms took.  Many years ago the Government of Portugal provided to Japan as a gift a recreation of the Indo-Portugeuse matchlock that would have been the progenitor of the earliest Tanegashima. Interestingly, this has a non-swollen breech, or seems to not have a swollen barrel.

 

Pictures attached (pulled from a Vikingsword post).

 

 

[Malae5]

I did find an excellent presentation by Jan Pettersson on early teppos and it does appear many of the known examples have no swollen breeches.

 

Here is the link:

https://nbthkebscandinavia.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/e6968-pettersson_16th_century_matchlocks.pdf

[DTM72]

I think your use of "swollen breech" can also be described as larger barrel diameter or greater wall thickness near the breech, tapering towards the muzzle. Correct?

[Brian]

Well, the breech needs to be thicker. That's where the explosion happens. But I have never seen anything exaggerated?

[Malae5]

Yes that's correct. The swelling in the breech on continental East Asian matchlocks is thicker to account for the force generated in that area.  However, and again I may be wrong in my interpretation of images, I tend to see the Japanese teppos having breeches of generally similar thickness to the remainder of the barrel, though in a few limited cases there is a gentle swelling.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, that sounds about right, Leon.

 

Here is my small Japanese bronze cannon, by the way, for illustration. This is atypical (non-typical) I would say, almost stepped, most having more of a gentle taper with the greatest thickness at the breech end.

Even the Indonesian Lantaka cannon keeps an overall straighter tapered profile.

 

Having said all that, your question is so unusual that I would need to go back and look at everything with fresh eyes before commenting further! 

 

 

 

 

[goo]

Hi I am new to the forum.  I have built 21 Early American style muzzle loading rifles fowlers and pistols 1750-1840 time period.    In this craft/trade the word swelling would communicate a bulge or barrel failure. The words used in the muzzle loading craft would be diameter and taper.   In the book Espenigarda Perfeyta edited and translated by Rainer Daenhardt and Kieth Neal ( from portuguese to english) to achieve a safe to fire barrel, the barrel length is divided into eight parts three parts from the breech forward are heavy in diameter and the remaining 5 parts are are lighter or thinner in diameter towards the muzzle. Smooth bores require less wall thickness along parts of the barrel than rifled barrels.   Sometimes barrel makers would add thickness or barrel bands at the muzzle as wear from steel rods can decrease barrel thickness. I have seen many old barrels with paper thin wall thickness at the muzzle.  Rifling a barrel will increase internal pressure exponentially which is why you see a rifled barrel as thick and quite heavy.  What makes shooting old original barrels risky is that original barrels european style barrels are forge welded from a flat skelp or flat rectangular iron over a rod down the length of the barrel.   As the barrel ages the corrosive quality of the black powder can compromise the weld.   Commercially available modern black powder barrels are drilled solid rod,  The alloy of choice is now 12L14 because it is ductile and does not work harden.    I do not know what Japanese smiths did when barrel making I would assume they had the ability to produce superior barrels as their work in producing iron and steel for blades was outstanding.