NBTHK Showato?

[Malvakin]

Just a question I thought of, could a showato not made of tamahagane get a NBTHK certification?

[Rivkin]

Its a trick question in many ways. On the one hand they are not supposed to. On the other hand no one really knows what its made of and there are plenty "legitimate" art swords from pre-1920 and even until 1945 made from weird steels that have little to do with tamahagane and are proud of it.

 

So it will not get papers if its run of the mill military sword with no particular distinction and bears evidence of cheap mass production.

It will most likely get papers in all other cases.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yes, a few have been by nefarious types removing the stamps. One last year on Aoiart was particularly bad, might have to do some digging to find the thread. 

[Malvakin]

  On 2/13/2023 at 2:45 AM, Rivkin said:

Its a trick question in many ways. On the one hand they are not supposed to. On the other hand no one really knows what its made of and there are plenty "legitimate" art swords from pre-1920 and even until 1945 made from weird steels that have little to do with tamahagane and are proud of it.

 

So it will not get papers if its run of the mill military sword with no particular distinction and bears evidence of cheap mass production.

It will most likely get papers in all other cases.

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Could you explain more about the weird steels? I know most Gunto were just pressed mill steel, but I’m not familiar with other types.

[Guest Simon R]

  On 2/13/2023 at 2:04 AM, Malvakin said:

Just a question I thought of, could a showato not made of tamahagane get a NBTHK certification?

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I've already posted this link and comments on another thread - but it answers your question so fully that I thought it was worth repeating.

(Therefore, I apologise to those members who have already seen this.)

 

Simon

 

Here is one by Kanemichi which was recently sold by a Japanese sword dealer.

It is a very obvious oil quench with no hada and has had its Sho(?) stamp removed without even bothering to try to disguise or age the fresh yasurime.

 

As shown, it received Hozon certification from the NBTHK.
 

 

https://www.Japanese-sword-katana.jp/%E6%9C%AA%E5%88%86%E9%A1%9E/1610-1123.htm

[Rivkin]

  On 2/13/2023 at 3:02 AM, Malvakin said:

Could you explain more about the weird steels? I know most Gunto were just pressed mill steel, but I’m not familiar with other types.

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Every single new type of steel introduced after 1800 had at least one swordsmith trying to make a blade out of it.

Every time a swordsmith heard about new Krupp steel praised for something, he thought how a blade made out of it would look like.

Today stainless steel tanto would be seen as blasphemy but in 1920s it was a cool thing. 

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Simon , thank you for reposting that . It really makes you wonder how worthwhlie Hozon papers are when a piece like this can get them , I was stunned that it had papers .

Ian Brooks

[PNSSHOGUN]

Thanks Simon, that was the one I was thinking of as well. An absolute stinker and really begs some answers from the Gendai Shinsa team.

[Bruno]

AFAIR I already saw one maybe 2 Koa Isshin to papered by NBTHK Hozon.

 

Also if a sword is tradtionnaly forged and water tempered then it is considered as a NIHONTO, despite it is not tamahagane (Mikasa to, gensui to, nanban tetsu to...)

[lonely panet]

fair point the kanbun area sword made from nambantetsu is ok,  but a showato stamp on a gendai quality sword will always be the black sheep of both communities

[Jacques]

  On 2/13/2023 at 3:50 AM, SRDRowson said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a very obvious oil quench with no hada and has had its Sho(?) stamp removed without even bothering to try to disguise or age the fresh yasurime.

 

 

 

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I kindly disagree as we can't see nothing on this pictures hamon (which can be in nioi deki) nor hada. I would add that removing a stamp in this very localized manner should leave a slope on the nakago.  

 

On attached picture a letter from the NBTHK about this topic 

[Guest Simon R]

  On 2/13/2023 at 9:33 AM, Jacques D. said:

 

I kindly disagree as we can't see nothing on this pictures hamon (which can be in nioi deki) nor hada. I would add that removing a stamp in this very localized manner should leave a slope on the nakago.  

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Like this, Jacques?

[PNSSHOGUN]

The NTHK have been known to paper Koa Isshin Mantetsu, cannot recall seeing a NBTHK papered example yet. A respected member in another group mentioned that in some cases old military swords with non-traditional have been papered so the families can register them.

[Bruno]

Some time ago, I had a similar recent private convesation with Chris Bowen. I hope it can enlight a bit. You can read below what he wrote me :

 

"two things to keep in mind:

 

-I registered several star stamped blades in Japan in the period 1990-2004. There was no issue then importing them. In fact, there was no problem submitting them to the NBTHK either as I did in fact submit one just to show they would paper. It did.

 

-The NBTHK and the Ministry of Education, which does the import licensing, are two distinctly different entities. Moreover, the registration shinsa are done by people in each prefecture under a contract basis. These people have the authority to decide whether or not a blade is registered, not the NBTHK. In truth, the NBTHK really has neither a clear idea what is in fact being registered nor the authority to make those decisions.

 

I have sent over many star stamped blades from 2004 to the present without any registration issues whatsoever.

 

I have however seen registration issues with Seki and Sho stamped blades at the registration shinsa and have been told by several registration judges that they will not register such blades because they do not meet the requirements under the law, which is, to paraphrase, "they must have artistic value". Mass produced blades are considered weapons, not art swords.

 

Having said that, I have been told by at least one judge, who I knew personally, that from time to time they would in fact register a Seki or Sho stamped blade if brought in by a widow or family member with claims that it belongs to a husband, grandfather, etc. He mentioned that they also ran into the situation where dealers would hire or send a showa-to to the registration with someone claiming it had belonged to a family member in order to get it through. He also mentioned that on several occasions dealers would remove a stamp in order to get it through. Unfortunately, this often works when there is a close relationship between the dealer and judge.

 

What I find most disturbing is the fact that of late we are seeing more and more mass produced showa-to passing NBTHK shinsa. There is no excuse for this and as I have said elsewhere, it lowers the value of all papers when they are given out to such swords.

 

When more and more showa-to started to be presented to their shinsa, the NTHK-NPO added the following to their shinsa guidelines: "From Heisei 31 forward, showa-to, mantetsu-to, factory made blades and others which do not show in comparison to nihon-to a preservation value　and further, are different in craft and construction from nihon-to, will not be awarded kantei papers." I have seen a few NTHK-NPO papered showa-to but to my knowledge, once they formally set policy per the above, they no longer will paper such blades."

[Jacques]

  On 2/13/2023 at 9:38 AM, SRDRowson said:

Like this, Jacques?

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Sorry, but I don't read crystal balls or chicken entrails. You can't see anything on these pictures

[John C]

In looking at the paperwork, can someone please tell me what the circled character means? Thank you,

John C.

[Toryu2020]

The line starts with (item) ONE (a) SWORD, SIGNATURE (Mei) the signature follows...

 

-t

[DTM72]

一 = item

刀 = katana

銘 = mei

The actual mei of the signature would continue downward unless Mumei 無銘

[Jacques]

Just to add that this swordsmith is recorded as rikugun jumei tosho, his swords bear star or seki stamp.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Jacques , are you being serious ?  Can't you see that the  stamp has been removed ?  Do you think that this blade is worthy of papers ?

Ian Brooks

[Ooitame]

I would like to send my Nagmitsu and see what it gets h or th...

[John C]

Thank you Thomas and Dan. 

John C.

[Bugyotsuji]

The Kanemichi NBTHK Heisei 28 hozon paper above clearly says Showa in brackets below the Mei. (昭和)

[Guest Simon R]

  On 2/14/2023 at 2:49 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

The Kanemichi NBTHK Heisei 28 hozon paper above clearly says Showa in brackets below the Mei. (昭和)

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Hi Piers,

 

The same 'Showa' in brackets also featured on the Hozon origami of one of my blades which passed shinsa last year. When I picked up the sword at the museum, I asked a gentleman from the NBTHK about its significance and he said it was simply to clarify the era and differentiate the blade from earlier generations using the same mei.

 

However, I must confess that my previously rock-solid confidence in the whole Hozon shinsa process has taken a big knock since discovering the example above. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, that's an interesting insight, Simon. I took the added Showa in brackets to mean, "We saw the erased Sho stamp there."

[Jacques]

  On 2/13/2023 at 10:39 PM, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Jacques , are you being serious ?  Can't you see that the  stamp has been removed ?  Do you think that this blade is worthy of papers ?

Ian Brooks

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Without having had the blade in hand I cannot say anything; it's quite difficult with the blade in hand and basing yourself on photos is like divination. I have never and will never buy a sword without having had it in hand first. 

[Bruno]

  On 2/13/2023 at 11:13 PM, Ooitame said:

I would like to send my Nagmitsu and see what it gets h or th...

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In April there is a NTHK NPO shinsa in Chicago, you can still submit your Nagamitsu.

[Ooitame]

  On 2/14/2023 at 10:26 AM, Bruno said:

In April there is a NTHK NPO shinsa in Chicago, you can still submit your Nagamitsu.

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Hi Bruno, I have NTHK Kanteisho, from the 2019 Tampa, shinsa held by the late Yosikawa Eiichi. I would like to see what it gets now with a fresh polish, as it is shows so much more activity. The hada is quite interesting and more activity in the hamon can be seen. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18610-show-us-your-high-class-gunto/?do=findComment&comment=408049

[David Flynn]

Eric, you wont get more than Hozon.   Save your money.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 2/13/2023 at 3:48 PM, Bruno said:

When more and more showa-to started to be presented to their shinsa, the NTHK-NPO added the following to their shinsa guidelines: "From Heisei 31 forward, showa-to, mantetsu-to, factory made blades and others which do not show in comparison to nihon-to a preservation value　and further, are different in craft and construction from nihon-to, will not be awarded kantei papers." I have seen a few NTHK-NPO papered showa-to but to my knowledge, once they formally set policy per the above, they no longer will paper such blades."

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So, according to Chris Bowen, we shouldn't see any more papered showa-to after 2019, unless they show "a preservation value."