Sword ID help

[seanh]

This is my first post here and I'd just like to learn more about this sword. I've bought two Japanese sword books over the years trying to ID it, but could never decipher much about it - whether its pre-WWII, WWII or post. My dad bought it at a pawn shop in the 1960s. I'm NOT interested in selling it at all, just looking to learn more. I've always though the markings near the tsuba looked like a fishing implement, but I don't have a clue about what's under the wrapping on the handle. Thanks for any help. This swiord has been a mystery to me for many, many years.

[Stephen]

first off, you dont ever find out whats under the wraping unless it in need of full repair. Your last photo made me do a double take, the carpet pile took me aback thinking you had large chips in the kissaki..looking back at other pix i was very happy to see it in tack. The blade looks older than WW2 with the leather cover on the saya added at that time. think we'll need to see more activity of the blade...looks to have shallow hamon, we might be able to pinpoint the school from it. Nice of you to keep to pass along. Keep a light coat of oil on it.

[seanh]

Thanks! Re-covered during the war? That might help explain why it didn't look like any of the war time scabbards I saw in the books. So the saya could be original but re-covered. Was that common during the war? Here's a few more pics, in case they can help to ID the blade.

[Mark Green]

Hi Seanh,

Some of you pics do worry me about your Hamon. Does it run off the swords edge anywhere?

Can you get the Habaki off? How long is the sword?

I would like to see a pic of that Tsuba as well.

Nice old sword, Check out your Hamon well.

Mark G

[seanh]

Much thanks Mark. The Hamon doesn't appear to run off the blade though it's hard to see in places. The whole sword is 32 3/4 inches and the blade is 23 3/4. Here's some old notes I made based on John Yumoto's book that may or may not be correct:

Point-long o-kissaki; curved edge fukura-tsuku; shinogi-zukuri type, narrow raised edge; temper line regular zig-zag (gonome); back ridge (mune) flat Chira-mune or kaku-mune; curvature-shallow koshi-zori or bizen-zori.

 

I've never taken the habiki off, but I can try if you think it might help to ID the blade.

 

As I mentioned it was bought in a New York City pawn shop in 1967. I'm posting a copy of the tag that was on it which said: Samurai name: Matsujiri Miyamoto; Rank-3; Age-150 years ago; maker's name-

 

I've no idea of whether the tag is accurate or not. Thanks again!

[Mark Green]

Hiya,

Is the Mune 'flat', or is there just a bit of curve to it?

If flat, that is very interesting.

I think that is more a chu-Kissaki.

Shallow Koshi-zori, Flat mune, All interesting points.

Great looking Tsuba!

It would be great if you could get the Habaki off. It looks to be silver foil. So be careful, it is easy to damage the foil.

What is the thickness, Kasane? Taken at the Munemachi, and at the Sakikasane, Yokote.

All these things may help give us a clue to the origins of you sword.

Later, Mark G

[reinhard]

but could never decipher much about it - whether its pre-WWII, WWII or post. This sword has been a mystery to me for many, many years.

 

Hi Sean,

 

When trying to understand this sword you better separate the blade from its koshirae. This particular koshirae is an occasional assembly of mismatching parts. There are a leather frog and a tassel pointing towards WWII, but the tassel is not where it is supposed to be. Tsuka and tsuba seem to be of earlier date, but at a closer look they are not. The crossings of tsuka-ito are all made in the same direction and the diamond shapes in between look poor. This is pointing towards a later date of manufacture. The habaki is not fitting the blade properly. Seppa are asymmetrical and of poor quality. - All in all you better focus on the blade. The koshirae can be neglected.

 

reinhard

[seanh]

Thanks reinhard and everyone else that's provided help. I was starting to get the impression that it was cobbled together, which helps explain why I couldn't quite match it up with what I was looking at in the books. I hadn't considered that.

 

Yes, the blade. I'd certainly like to learn more about that. I imagine that might be WWII too, but I'm trying to fill out the sword inventory off The Japanese Sword Guide to try and facilitate things and I'll post more measurements this week. Thanks again. I already know a lot more about this thanks to you folks!

[seanh]

Okay, I got the habaki off and here's some pics and measurements. The width of the yokote is about 7/16 and at the back notch it's about 15/16. The length of the blade from the back notch is 23 3/16 and 28 3/8 overall.

 

I was way off. I think the mune is takashi though maybe shallow point. I'm pretty sure the curvature is shallow. I think Mark is right and the tip is chu-Kissaki. The nakago shape is futsu and the file lines are horizontal to slightly angled. I don't see any grain to the blade other than a slight pebbly grain.

 

Well, I don't have high expectations for the quality or age of the blade given reinhard's evaluation of the fittings, but I'm stil curious about it. Thanks again. --Sean

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

Difficult to see the hada, the blade is rusty ... :?

For my it is chu kissaki. And looking at habaki,I thinks this blade is iori mune.

The file mark on the nakago are kiri yasurime. It is usual when the blade is suriage (cut off).

 

Hamon looks regular gunome. Mino influence ?

My first impression was koto Muromachi, but I am far to be a specialist.

I am curious to know the opinion of the other member of this board. :D

 

Sébastien

[reinhard]

Well, I don't have high expectations for the quality or age of the blade given reinhard's evaluation of the fittings, but I'm stil curious about it.

 

Don't give in too quickly, Sean. Problem is: State of preservation allows hardly any conclusions about quality or characteristics of this blade. On the other hand, nothing seems to be obviously wrong with it so far. - I wished the area underneath the habaki revealed some news, for it is usually the best protected area on deteriorated blades, but for some reason, it looks even worse. (This is supporting the "mismatching koshirae"-theory, BTW.)

Advice (or even expertise) on the basis of pictures is very difficult in a case like this. You better show this blade to an experienced collector whom you can trust. We could go on speculating wildly for some time, but this is probably not what you are looking for.

 

reinhard

[seanh]

Thanks again for all the input. I'm sure there's an active sword club in my area so maybe I'll go that route. Is there any group that actually IDs and certifies swords/blades? Is it even possible to tell if this is man-made or machine made? Also, any advice on how to clean the blade a bit before I oil it and put it up?

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

I guess it is a man-made sword.

 

The best things to don't damage the blade is to let it as it is. Don't sandpaper ou steel wool it.

You just could used uchiko powder to clean the blade before oil it.

 

Sébastien