Over exaggerated Hadori polish

[Matsunoki]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:19 PM, Matsunoki said:

In my opinion, it’s a matter of opinion….and we are all entitled to ours.

@Franco D……..I’m not upset that you downvoted my post but I would be interested to know why. 

[Franco D]

Colin,

 

Thank you for not being upset, not taking the down vote personally. Still, my apology for casting it without explanation.

 

Why is because I strongly disagree that it is only a matter of opinion. No, it is not any longer "only" a matter of opinion when there is a majority consensus by the experts that says otherwise. That isn't to say that you're not entitled to have that opinion. Neither is it saying not to express your opinion. Are we going to start telling polishers how to polish a sword?

Is liking something reason enough?

 

 

Regards,

[Matsunoki]

16 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Are we going to start telling polishers how to polish a sword?

Provided there is no damage done to any sword and provided the polisher is capable in both styles I believe we are entitled to express a preference for how we wish our sword to appear if it is possible. And given that this is a divisive subject with strong views on both sides I still firmly believe that it is a matter of opinion. If it wasn’t then we would all agree wouldn’t we? Hadori is a fairly modern cosmetic innovation and clearly not everyone is a fan of it. I prefer the natural face without makeup. It is just my opinion….as I very clearly stated.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Provided there is no damage done to any sword and provided the polisher is capable in both styles I believe we are entitled to express a preference for how we wish our sword to appear if it is possible. And given that this is a divisive subject with strong views on both sides I still firmly believe that it is a matter of opinion. If it wasn’t then we would all agree wouldn’t we? Hadori is a fairly modern cosmetic innovation and clearly not everyone is a fan of it. I prefer the natural face without makeup. It is just my opinion….as I very clearly stated.

 

 

Ok, Colin, let me share what I have discussed in person with Tanobe sensei. It was not an in-depth discussion but a brief one as we covered other topics. However, it contradicts the pure 'preference-based' thesis and illustrates how one is perhaps slightly better than the other in certain circumstances. 

 

Sashikomi is particularly appropriate for nioi-based (or perhaps this could be extended also to very, very fine/tight ko-nie which is close to nioi) hamon with clearly defined choji or gunome-choji. Think Mitsutada, Moriie,  etc. In fact, he recommended a specific polisher, adept at a particular type of polish and specialising in a particular Gokaden school, for a specific sword of mine. That particular sword (I am not going to disclose further details as that is not relevant) is a mid-Kamakura Bizen blade that fits the aforementioned modus operandi. Furthermore, the jigane has some hadatatsu, which is a signature trait of the school/smith.

 

The new sashikomi polish replaced a previous highly skilful hadori polish and not only accentuated the choji beautifully but of course clearly delineated them. Some of the smaller choji and some of the togari gunome previously were not clear until viewed sideways. Furthermore, it subdued some of the o-hada / hadatachi and toned it down, making the jigane appear better, smoother, etc (outcome of the nugui used in there).

 

Hadori, as others have said, eg in the other polish thread that dates to 2013 (where George Trotter and Chris Bowen exchanged lots of useful views, insights and information) could presumably also be good on choji and Bizen-like hamon. In fact, most swords nowadays indeed have hadori. But that polishing style seems to be particularly apposite for Soshu-like nie and jihada, where it spectacularly brings out the jihada, jinie, and overall nie in the entire structure. The jigane becomes more visible and clearer.  Presumably in swords where you have notare midare or a simple wavy or suguha  hamon (eg Yamashiro), you do not need the sashikomi to bring forward particularly visually striking formations such as flamboyant choji/o-choju/fukuro choji etc). Moreover, also when you have jinie and chikei, etc, you want the maximum luminance and translucence of the jigane (which hadori highlights). Hence the result is the wet, oily look in some of the Kamakura masterpieces. 

 

To elaborate on my earlier point above about each of the two styles potentially being done ineptly. Tanobe sensei has also commented on sometimes certain polish not being appropriate for a certain sword. In fact, I have seen numerous examples where the hadori has been too bright or too aggressive for a venerable old sword. One of mine is polished in a very respectful and delicate manner, as it behoves the dignity of an old Ko-Bizen beauty that it is. 

 

Eventually, yes, we as collectors and temporary custodians might express a predilection for one or another polishing method. However, that does not mean that it is right for the sword or that it has been done right. That is why we need to respect and listen to experts.

 

 

 

 

[rematron]

Is it fair to say that a collector who prefers sashikomi probably also prefers Nihonto characteristics that particular polish style illuminates?

[Matsunoki]

10 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Ok, Colin, let me share what I have discussed in person with Tanobe sensei. It was not an in-depth discussion but a brief one as we covered other topics. However, it contradicts the pure 'preference-based' thesis and illustrates how one is perhaps slightly better than the other in certain circumstances. 

Good evening Michael

In my previous comments I did ask for “professional opinion” and I also stated “provided no damage is done to any sword”. Let’s be clear, I am not advocating anything inappropriate be done to any sword.

Thank you for your expert opinion. I promise you I respect all expert opinions. (But very often experts disagree don’t they🙂). I’ve been in the Japanese Art world for over 40 years and you cannot thrive in that world without learning the importance of respect.

All I am saying, as many have said before and still do, is that I prefer swords in sashikomi. I do understand that both styles can be done well or very badly. I’ve not seen a badly done sashikomi but I’ve seen some hideous and inappropriate hadori. In those instances the polisher showed no respect whatsoever for the sword.

Its great if you can chose your togishi to suit a particular sword but in reality we are heading to a situation where most of us will be lucky to get any swords polished in any style unless we actually take them to Japan and are still alive by the time they get done! (Postal theft, customs problems, lost packages etc etc.)

I’m not looking for a fight!!!!……but my opinion, or perhaps I should say my preference remains.

Its nearly wine o’clock. 

Best wishes

Colin
 

 

 

[Gakusee]

17 hours ago, rematron said:

Is it fair to say that a collector who prefers sashikomi probably also prefers Nihonto characteristics that particular polish style illuminates?

Jeremy

Sometimes we tend to oversimplify matters. Subjective preference might or might not be right for a certain sword. It becomes a matter of personal (in this case, Western) interpretation of what a traditional Japanese object should look like and is juxtaposed versus a Japanese perspective and aesthetical interpretation. Sometimes these two are misaligned and sometimes they are aligned. 
What I have observed is that we often tend to judge a polish as good or bad through our Western perspective and also on the basis of indeed cheaper, rushed or substandard polishes encountered in the West (and sometimes Japan). Therefore, I do not subscribe to views such as “we have seen this and that many times over an extended period of time in country X or country Z” if said country is not Japan. Indeed outside of Japan we often do not have swords in current or top polish. As mentioned in the other polish thread, older polish (even if it once was hadori) could appear as close to sashikomi if abraded with uchiko over decades. So, sometimes people think they have seen sashikomi polish when actually they have seen a sword in an older polish that has been uchiko-ed away. 
 

Also, viewing or photographing swords head-on (sword lying on its side and us viewing it directly perpendicularly from above) might not show us much if the hadori is there and blending hamon elements and I sense that characteristic is what makes some members complain about hadori and express a preference for shashikomi. But through observing the sword longitudinally and pointing to a light source, the same hadori can reveal the “hidden elements” and in addition allows full appreciation of the jigane head-on. 

I have also seen instances where a sword was finished in a certain way that raised some questions in my mind. Why did the polisher not bring out the hamon more or the hada even more? The polish was good but not what some in the West call “Juyo polish”. After careful discussion with the polisher it transpired that he had noticed a small sub-surface fukure (barely detectable by a polisher and invisible to the common observer). Accordingly, the polisher did not undertake further grinding and only highlighted as much as he thought would not bring up / burst the fukure (which only he noticed and many experienced people missed) and yet would allow appreciation of the sword. Such subtleties and insider insights are normally lost on most people, who would only comment on how “good” or “bad” a polish might look superficially. 
 

So, to answer your question: it is probably a mix of experience (ie, seeing older polishes or substandard polishes); preference for a specific type of viewing/ experiencing the blade (ie, head-on immediate appreciation of hamon); own interpretation of what traditional or appropriate is (ie, Western perspective on this, even though various articles and interviews have mentioned that hadori is older than what we think and that “traditionally” in the old periods swords were finished differently from sashikomi / hadori finish as we know it today) and various other personal reasons (which might include a specific belief or liking of swords that come up better in sashikomi). 
 

So, my overall advice is to research and study extensively / thoroughly before forming an extreme opinion such as this polish is better than that, so one should always go for that polish. 

[drbvac]

Interesting discussion in opinions and thoughts and personal preference. I do have preferences and although Hadori is more spectacular on any blade because it so highlights the hamon that everyone seems obsessed with, I do prefer the subtlety of Sashikomi. That said - what I really think is as many of you have said - it should be decided by the togishi based on the blade and its history and if possible a return to the style it was probably done in when made.  I like shiny paint but wouldn't spray a clear lacquer over an antique oil painting and if restoration is returning an item to its original beauty then that is the way to go. Even something as mundane as furniture has seen a increase in whites and chrome but I personally like the older rich wood tones of antique furniture. Personal preferences in restoration should not include changing what once was to something not in keeping with the history and originality of any item.