Over exaggerated Hadori polish

[MHC]

Hello all,

As the title states over exaggerated Hadori polish, what do you all feel about this. I have seen swords polished well, but with a Hadori polish profile that clearly goes well beyond the actual Hamon {1 is for sale on the forum currently}

I'm not a huge fan of Hadori style polish anyway, but an over exaggerated profile just instantly kills my interest in the sword.

I'm aware that a Hadori style polish is the norm these days {aka required for judging}, but sure would like to see more old swords polished in the original Sashikomi style.

Just one mans rambling thoughts.....

 

Mark

[Matsunoki]

Agree completely 110%!

just my opinion (voiced before) but seems nuts to disguise the hardening work of the smith with an obscuring veil that makes it difficult to see “in hand” and near impossible to see in images.…..but….one man’s meat is another man’s poison. Some like the “drama” of contrast.

I believe a good traditional sashikomi is more difficult to achieve……would love to hear expert comment.

Im also told modern sashikomi uses acid….again would appreciate expert comment.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Wholeheartedly agree, much prefer an older Sashikomi polish when possible. Hadori required for judging, where did you read this?

[Alex A]

Its ok on a good sword with lots of activity and done well.

 

Sometimes though, looking at dealer sites in its difficult to know whether a sword has a bad polish or its just a bland sword. One Japanese dealer in particular seems to have a lot of these swords and im guessing they use the same polisher often, hence i was always a bit reluctant to buy from, especially as unwilling to provide further images.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

A good hadori is much better appreciated in good light, with the correct lighting. Doesn't show well in pics.

[Bugyotsuji]

Not too long ago I saw a good hadori polish. It showed everything that a sashikomi would have done, but it also had an almost 3D effect to it.

[Matsunoki]

  On 2/12/2023 at 11:49 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hadori required for judging, where did you read this?

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Hi John

I have  also read something to that effect somewhere on this very Forum. I believe the phrase stated that Hadori was “the preferred style of polish for Shinsa”. I believe it was referring to the NBTHK.  No chance I’ll remember the actual thread but I didn’t dream it!

The danger with Hadori, especially buying from images is that it’s a real gamble unless you know and trust the vendor. It can hide a multitude of sins, make a hagire almost disappear (I’ve seen that-very scary) etc etc and very often looks garish. Of course, depends on the skill and preferences of the Togishi. 

 

[george trotter]

I too dislike hadori polish...so much so that I would rather keep a sword in WWII sashikomi polish even if it had scratches and stains from use.

 

I wonder if any modern polisher can still do sashikomi today? 

I also wonder why modern collectors/museums/dealers etc moved to Hadori?....(must have been for a cost saving reason - surely it couldn't have been for artistic reasons?).

 

I know the world changes over time, but IMHO losing sashikomi is a really sad change

I probably sound like a grump, but I have to say, honestly, I would not even pick up and look at a sword in modern hadori polish.

[Baba Yaga]

We "used to" define Hadori polish as a lot of makeup on a very old lady. 

[MHC]

Hadori polish required for judging, yes read that on this forum and equally in several books I poses regarding polishing technics and traditions.

 

I have a heck of a lot of books, and have read them all several times over, but alas it would take more time than I'm willing to invest in order to notate each occurrence.

 

Especially for just a casual inquisition on the subject of this or that style of polish preference.

 

Thanks for all of your inputs and opinions, clearly I am not alone in my preference.

 

Mark

[Stephen]

We once had a member here who had a togi in Japan who was going to polish for us at a decent price (for those who don't know you can see where this is going)

I have a lovely katana that had white rust stains but the hamon was lovely with nice ashi.

I specified no harsh hadori.

Yep it came back FULL hadori no ashi to be seen. So the old adage remains true. If its too good to be true......but hey the stains were gone.😢

[Matsunoki]

  On 2/13/2023 at 2:26 PM, Stephen said:

Yep it came back FULL hadori no ashi to be seen. S

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That makes me mad as hell and it isn’t even my sword🤬

I guess it was a time saving short cut and “sod the customer”. I once had some really nice mixed metalwork vases patinated by someone who “absolutely knew what he was doing”. Never seen such a mess. Used Ford after that (many years ago).We get tempted though don’t we?

[reinhard]

Another derailed topic.

 

For those interested in the difference of "sashikomi" and "hadori"-polish I recommend "The Craft of the Japanese sword".

Read pages 119-121 and READ THEM CAREFULLY!

 

The hadori-step of polishing was invented by polishers of the Hon'ami family in later 19th century and became widely popular.

It is still now.

Wether one likes it or not, it is still the choice of the owner how his blade is going to be polished.

"Sashikomi"-polish is just using a different kind of nugui, turning the ji into darker patterns, but not the ha.

No big deal and no "lost craft" involved.

Just a matter of fashion and individual preferences.

 

This brings me to another point:

Both kinds of polishing-methods are revealing all important features of a blade.

If you can't see them, it's your fault.

Lighting, experience, your eyes.... basically depending on your individual background.

 

reinhard

 

PS.: Andrew Ickeringill's view on this topic would be of relevance here.

 

 

 

[Stephen]

  On 2/14/2023 at 1:05 AM, reinhard said:

If you can't see them, it's your fault.

Lighting, experience, your eyes.... basically depending on your individual background.

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Wrong 

[Alex A]

Often hear the term "commercial polish". Once spoke to a polisher about the obscure looking Hadori that you see and his reply was that some dealers don't want to spend the money and just want something basic with less time spent, more profit. He said he didn't like to do them but that's how it was.

 

Would be good to hear again from Andrew Ickeringill

[Brian]

  On 2/14/2023 at 2:26 AM, Stephen said:

Wrong 

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Stephen,
I assume Reinhard is referring to WELL DONE and proper hadori. I agree yours obscures things, but I think that is due to the way it was done, not just the fact that it is hadori.

[reinhard]

Thanks Brian,

 

I forgot to mention the different qualities of hadori-polish.

A skillful polisher carefully roughens the ha to a minimal extent in order to group certain features of the hamon and to whiten the ha.

Important features remain visible, for they are necessary to judge the blade properly.

This process demands a basic understanding of schools and their characteristica and and advanced skills in polishing.

I am aware of the fact that minor polishers are just putting "make-up" on a blade to make it attractive for ignorants.

The poor outcome of their work should not be the reason for bashing "hadori-polish".

 

BTW: The result of "hadori-polish" will fade anyway during time.

Proper sword-care applying uchiko once in a while will do.

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

In addition to what Reinhardt said, the thoughts of a traditionally trained polisher (now deceased).

i add that wanting to judge a polish on photo is the same as wanting to kantei a sword the same way (i'll never repeat it enough.).

[Alex A]

Would be great to live somewhere like Tokyo and see swords in hand before a purchase., for a lot of us though, pictures is all we got.

 

For what i like, the chances of me seeing a blade in hand in this country before a purchase are virtually zilch..

 

Obviously some dealers provide better images than other dealers and go the extra mile messing about for you with extra daylight images etc. To the point where with seeing enough swords you get a good idea of what is being presented.

 

If you cant be certain when looking at images, don't buy it.

 

Agree though, buying in hand is really the only way to be sure.

 

 

[Franco]

The ideal situation when it comes to polishing would be to be able to match and choose just the "right" polisher to the sword. Short of achieving that end for a slew of reasons, not the least of which is the lack of skill and ability on the part of the sword's owner to properly analyze and judge the work of a polisher, the next best approach is to find the most skillful and able polisher available. That, however, often involves making sacrifices. Sacrifices that too often Westerners brush off in the rush to get the job done as quickly as possible. Which brings us to the subject of hadori vs sashikomi. For me, I find it difficult to understand when I hear a sword owner wanting to dictate to a person who has spent up to ten years of their life in a challenging apprenticeship training to become a polisher, followed by years more or longer practicing, wanting to tell that polisher how to do their job. If the sword's owner did their homework in choosing a polisher, then the question of how the sword is to be polished should have already been answered. Let the polisher decide how best to polish the sword. 

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Jimmy_Hayashi_Sword_Polisher.html

 

 

[Bazza]

I ran out of likes!!!  Big tick to Franco's piece above.  I was especially taken with the excerpt I've attached from the link given.  This interview should (IMHO) be essential reading for anyone who aspires to collect Nihontou.

 

BaZZa.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Bazza
Correction and additional comment

[Guest Simon R]

I really don't have a dog in this fight but the following page from the Kashima sisters' Usagiya website appears directly relevant to the topic in hand.

It illustrates an apprentice togishi's recent attempts to polish in both styles and the last example, in particular, shows how poor an overt and inexpert application of hadori can be.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togipractice.html

 

 

[Gakusee]

  On 2/17/2023 at 9:11 AM, SRDRowson said:

shows how poor an overt and inexpert application of hadori can be.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togipractice.html

 

 

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Sashikomi can also be poor and overt and inexpert. 
 

Some blades are more appropriate in sashikomi and some - in hadori. 

Both styles can be done poorly. 

 

So it is rather pointless to say one is better than another. That is the message I keep hearing from professional togishi. 

[Stefan]

O.K. Hadori.  First of all. If it is well done even the strongest  Hadori  will not  kill  an features in the  Yakiba  and Habuchi. In spite  of that, it will improve  their  appearance. The Nie will be more brilliant, the Ashi better visible etc. That is only  logical, because the stone  used in Hadori is the same  as to bring  them out  before Jitsuya and Nugui after the Jibiki. But, to do this it takes  patience, and much  time. Doing perfect  Hadori  on an Katana, well two days, three days. This  time  must be paid. This  is  the one reason  for the  effect of  Ashi  who  disappears  during  Habori Shiage. in order to shorten  the  process, an slightly  other  stone is used. it  whitens the  area much  faster and  saves time  and  money. This is done  in cheap polishes. Therefore  if  one orders  an cheap polish, well...

Another  problem, impatient clients. If one  does not  have the right  tone  at  hand at the moment, well  the  client must  be willed  to wait some time. As  I said, it  depends all on the correct  stone and  technique. Without, no way  to do an  good  job. Logical, isn it ? So if  You  force  Your  Togishi  to be faster,  "lost" Ashi can be the result.

Than the  decision  Sashikomi or Hadori.

I would not say  that this  is  only  the customers  decision. There are  technical requirements in the blade  which must be filled  up by  the blade, otherwise  Sashikomi simply  does not work well. By example,  Sashikomi   on an partial  tiered  blade, please not. The  technique uses the different hardness  of the  steel  in the  Ji and ha, What  do You think would it do with  soft Jigane.  Exact, super dark ugly patches. These are  only technical thoughts about the whole thing, if  talk  about asthetics, many times  Hadori is the best way. there must be a balance  between the Toshin and  the  Ji-Ba.  Imagine an small, fine  Tanto with  an completely  hectic  Hitatsura.  The  whole  thing  should  be  calmed  down slightly in  order  to give the Toshin and the Jiba an balance. 

Just my  random thougths about Hadori.

[DoTanuki yokai]

I thought sashikomi is a Nioi-deki thing or can I see some examples of Nie-deki Sashikomi ? 

[Guest Simon R]

  On 2/17/2023 at 11:00 AM, Gakusee said:

Sashikomi can also be poor and overt and inexpert. 
 

Some blades are more appropriate in sashikomi and some - in hadori. 

Both styles can be done poorly. 

 

So it is rather pointless to say one is better than another. That is the message I keep hearing from professional togishi. 

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Er, what part of "I don't have a dog in this fight" is unclear? I never said that one style was better than the other - I simply pointed out that the link showed a badly done hadori finish. I believe it also shows a very mediocre sashikomi in the second example.

Personally, I always leave it up to the polisher.

[Matsunoki]

In my opinion, it’s a matter of opinion….and we are all entitled to ours.

I have  seen appalling Hadori polish that do nothing for the blade. I have never seen an appalling sashikomi.

In the image below of the same blade section done in the two  different styles I know which I prefer and which shows the hamon to best advantage. 

 

 

 

[Mark S.]

  On 2/17/2023 at 12:27 PM, SRDRowson said:

 

Personally, I always leave it up to the polisher.

 

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I completely agree.  The only favor I ask of the polisher (to educate me, not question him) is to let me know which style he is using and why that is best.  Then I may ask the best methods I should use to view the activity and how/what I should be looking at and focusing on.  

[Chishiki]

Recommened reading.  entertaining thread from almost 10 years ago.  Mark

 

 

[george trotter]

I saw this post in the general discussion section Mark and I commented there. Thanks for finding and posting it.

I'm pleased to say that we were polite then, even if we disagreed...and glad to say that now, 10 years later, we are (mostly) still polite when we disagree.

That's what the NMB is - a forum of civilised discussion.

Regards....