An Edo period Cast Iron tsuba?

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I refer you to the thread titled- “Papered(?) iron tsuba….help!

Matsunoki

By Matsunoki

Thursday at 09:24 AM in Tosogu”

 

So, I put 2 and 2 together and came up with 4 (or maybe 5!).  Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

When I re-read the above mentioned thread, I noticed that one member thought the iron tsuba looked like a cast iron tsuba.  Another member tended to agree with that opinion. These statements are my summation of what was stated, and I could very well be wrong (to find out exactly what was stated, I refer you to the above thread).

 

Also, another member thought the tsuba could be dated from the late 1700’s to the early 1800’s.

 

Now what does that all mean?

 

Could it show that some members are now of the opinion that cast iron tsuba were made during the Edo period?

 

It has been my experience that the study of tsuba is not an “exact science”.  There are many “variables” that are left up to the interpretation of the individual doing the research.

 

As many of you know (from my “Tsuba Casting Molds?” thread), the idea that iron tsuba could have been cast in the Edo period has always intrigued (fascinated?) me.

 

I am still researching and always trying to find new “evidence” in support of this “Edo period cast iron tsuba” hypothesis (theory?).

 

I think the above-mentioned opinions by various members of the forum are very interesting!

 

Thank you all!

 

And the research and adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Steves87]

Hi Dan, I must assume that one of those opinions you refer to in the other thread, are mine. I just want to go on record saying I don't necessarily think that particular guard was cast (with post added embellishments), but I do agree that it is possible, and that it definitely did happen. I think that we would see a lot more of that exact design if it were cast, just like the grazing horse theme I mentioned, those horse guards are all basically identical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Stephen,

 

Thank you so much for your thoughts!  Like I stated before, the subject of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period has always intrigued me!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Steves87]

And here is an example of the typical incomplete horsey guard: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/285145304043?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=2UubEKaEQJa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=OjC70kueRUa&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Again, thank you Stephen!

 

A very interesting link, and I see what you mean by “incomplete”!  Well done and thanks!

 

The research continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

I wonder if this is cast? 

 

A very very rare example with an actual face! This guy is taking a smoko break. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoko

 

Inlaid [glued on] face intact - super rare!

 

 

and back to more 'faceless' examples.

 

[ROKUJURO]

18 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

I wonder if this is cast? .....

Yes, cast away, as it deserves!

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So, in the previous thread mentioned (in one of my posts) on this thread; Stephen stated (and thanks Stephen – it started a whole new line of inquiry for me!)-

 

“….there are quite a few Soten/Hikone Tsuba that were done this way. Quite often one will pop up for auction that is just the base casting - no added inlay/zogan, they are mostly complete, just missing the alternate metal faces. A typical example of this is the soten grazing horse theme.”

 

Then Dale (also, thank you Dale) posted pictures of this "grazing horse" themed tsuba.  The first picture he posted of the broken tsuba (great picture – by the way!) verifies (at least to me!) that these “grazing horse" themed tsuba were cast iron (also, that particular tsuba has a “missing face”).

 

Then Dale posts other pictures of the same “grazing horse” tsuba that are also “incomplete”.  They are missing the “glued on(?)” faces.  These tsuba also appear to have “some age” to them.

 

So, what is up with that? 

 

This tsuba design was obviously very popular.  Did the alternate type of metal faces fall off of these cast iron tsuba over time?  Or are these actually tsuba that were not completed?  If they were not completed, what was the reason why?

 

Personally, my opinion is that the "alternate metal" face of the motif of a person on these cast iron tsuba just fell off over time.  They didn’t use a very good glue!

 

Thoughts, opinions??

 

The research continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Steves87]

Well, it could go either way in my opinion. I would vote for unfinished - 60 to 40. Why? Because of the lack of nunome, and ten zogan. That stuff doesn't just "fall off" unless it has had time induced impact forces, or, rust from below lifting it.

 

I have seen Kinko guards of this same theme with the faces missing, but ten zogan still embedded

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, I found another “grazing horse theme” tsuba.  This particular cast iron tsuba motif is relatively easy to find!  How many of these were made!

 

Again, the tsuba pictured has no “alternate metal face” on the person.  It does seem like the mei has been engraved and not cast with the tsuba.

 

Are all the mei the same on all the “grazing horse theme” tsuba pictured?

 

They all appear somewhat different to me (maybe because some parts of the mei are “worn” off).  Are the mei original or “gimei”? 

 

Who would (evidently) cast so many tsuba, not finish them, and engrave (?) a mei???

 

Were they cast in the Edo period (or is that something we may really never be able to determine)?

 

What is up with these tsuba?

 

With respect,

Dan

[Grevedk]

Good evening Dan,

 

16 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello all!

 

So, I found another “grazing horse theme” tsuba.  This particular cast iron tsuba motif is relatively easy to find!  How many of these were made!

 

Again, the tsuba pictured has no “alternate metal face” on the person.  It does seem like the mei has been engraved and not cast with the tsuba.

 

Are all the mei the same on all the “grazing horse theme” tsuba pictured?

 

They all appear somewhat different to me (maybe because some parts of the mei are “worn” off).  Are the mei original or “gimei”? 

 

Who would (evidently) cast so many tsuba, not finish them, and engrave (?) a mei???

 

Were they cast in the Edo period (or is that something we may really never be able to determine)?

 

What is up with these tsuba?

 

With respect,

Dan

 

Again citing: “Tsuba in the Cleveland Museum of Art” revised and edited by D. Raisbeck (leading scholar into the world of Tsuba 😎👍), and showing my own feeble attempt to take a picture in poor light:

 

I think that the stated conclusion is very close to a possible truth. 

 

@Spartancrest 

 

All the best

 

Soren

[Spartancrest]

Soren,

1 hour ago, Grevedk said:

leading scholar into the world of Tsuba

Soren - yes they are the guys sent out to do the scouting- and often the first to get shot! [or am I thinking of the Vietnam war?] 

1 hour ago, Grevedk said:

feeble attempt to take a picture in poor light:

Your picture is better than my feeble attempt to make sense of a collection the museum itself couldn't be bothered to organise or research. [The book even printed on feeble paper - not my fault I chose a feeble company to get the cheapest print so people could get a cheap book - which the retailers then simply hiked up the prices, to make sure they don't! ]

I would cry if I could afford a handkerchief. 

[Spartancrest]

Still 'horsing around'. You can add these to what to avoid as far as cast horse theme 'tsuba' [if you can call them that?]

Where are the scrap iron dealers when we need them!

[Grevedk]

Dale,

16 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Soren,

Soren - yes they are the guys sent out to do the scouting- and often the first to get shot! [or am I thinking of the Vietnam war?] 

Your picture is better than my feeble attempt to make sense of a collection the museum itself couldn't be bothered to organise or research. [The book even printed on feeble paper - not my fault I chose a feeble company to get the cheapest print so people could get a cheap book - which the retailers then simply hiked up the prices, to make sure they don't! ]

I would cry if I could afford a handkerchief. 

 

I like and enjoy your work, and I appreciate that every bit of both knowledge and understanding very often comes from the hard work, the capacity of endurance against difficult odds and the willingness to share “knowledge and understanding” by someone - like you. 
 

Asking relevant questions like Dan @Dan tsubaand others, and having them answered by the sheer knowledge of the accumulated NMB (and you)  - is simply a “Treasure Stove”.

 

First mover’s, scouts or whatever we call them are often taking the risks (“of getting fixed in someone’s cross sight”), but I believe most survive that ordeal with the understanding that they actually made a difference 😎👍

 

/Soren

[Steves87]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:09 AM, Dan tsuba said:

 

 

Who would (evidently) cast so many tsuba, not finish them, and engrave (?) a mei???

 

Good point Dan, perhaps the ones which have a mei (some don't), are the ones where the decoration has fallen off? maybe I should change it to 40 - 60?

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, Steves87 said:

Who would (evidently) cast so many tsuba, not finish them, and engrave (?) a mei???

The quote originally from Dan.

 

What if the production procedure involved cutting in the mei first, then applying the faces? The process of cutting or engraving the signatures would add extra stresses to the bad 'inlay' [or glue] so it could have resulted in construction in an out of sequence fashion - on a good quality piece you expect the signing to be done last, why sign something if it ended up being badly made? But intentionally making a fake with little quality control, you get the saleable elements done first [signature] then the pretty bits get added. The manufacturer doesn't care if the pretty bits fall off latter, you have already paid him for the signature. 

This partly contradicts what I said in the Cleveland book-   but all things are open to speculation and we really don't know the manufacturing procedures fully.

 

One as yet unsolved mystery is why if these fakes were made as export ware [what else could they be made for?] - why are they still coming out of Japan a hundred years or more from when they were being made? Did a few hundred thousand not make it to the wharf and were sent back to storage? 

[Steves87]

A great thought there Dale, very plausible. Also, adding a sequence to a process can lead to efficiency, in this case they were so efficient, that it looks like a couple thousand got made!

[Spartancrest]

Just found this in the V&A - Just proves even the biggest museums can collect rubbish [actually found at least six fakes in the V&A]

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O466167/tsuba/  Images are once again copyright so you will have to open the link.