Papered(?) iron tsuba….help!

[Matsunoki]

Hello from the UK

I am drifting towards “the dark side” and have started to take a greater interest in iron tsuba. I’ve never studied the subject, nor do I have any books apart from Sasano….probably in my attic somewhere….I must get it down.

At a recent local antiques fair (usually nothing but tat) I was amazed to see a chap selling some tsuba. Once I’d recovered from the shock I decided a few of them really interested/intrigued me so we had a deal. Mostly I only ever buy things that I really like but this tsuba is a bit of an exception. Being honest I only bought it because it appears to have papers…..I know nothing about the detail of papers…except that they signify “worthy of preservation - at various levels”

I will post each one in forthcoming days and ask for your opinions…..anything that you can tell me will be most welcome.

So, starting with this one….what do I have and what are the papers?

Apologies  for being devoid of knowledge myself…..but we have to start somewhere! Don’t hold back!

H 6.95cm. W 6.07cm Thickness 4.9mm…..quite chunky.

Many thanks. All the best. Colin 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Colin!

 

Like you, I am mostly devoid of knowledge about this stuff.  I have only been collecting for a couple of years.

 

But you asked for opinions, and like “belly buttons” everyone has one!  So here is mine-

 

Something just looks “off” about the tsuba.  The mei looks like it was almost “cast”.  I have a few “papered” tsuba but have never seen papers like that.  My “gut” tells me that something is not right (maybe I need food so my “gut” feels better!).

 

On the positive side it is a nice looking tsuba with nice inlay work.

 

Like I said before, just my (uneducated) opinion.  I will wait (along with you) to see what other members think about it!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Matsunoki]

11 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Something just looks “off” about the tsuba.  The mei looks like it was almost “cast”. 

Hi Dan…..I agree!

 

12 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

On the positive side it is a nice looking tsuba with nice inlay work

I disagree!! I think it’s horrible!….but I needed to know how a tsuba like this got papers….if indeed it did.

[Brian]

Those are dealer papers. I forget which. I don't see it as cast, just an average to lower end iron tsuba.

[Winchester]

Colin, are there any reputable sellers or shops locally in the UK/Scotland?

 

Along these lines, you might find guidance from a seller /shop, foregoing any sales pitches (), in that you can see and review them in person. 

 

I read a lot in this hobby, but still not even at the starting line, so-to-speak. I find it most helpful to network at shows, shops/dealers and review in person. For me, the most important thing is that I enjoy it, find it aesthetically pleasing and the ownership gives me pleasure .

[ROKUJURO]

Looks like a cast SOTEN style TSUBA. You can see that the MEI is not cut with a chisel. It is the type of copy which has been reworked and decorated with soft metal after casting. 

[Steves87]

hi Colin,

Jean could very well be correct, there are quite a few Soten/Hikone Tsuba that were done this way. Quite often one will pop up for auction that is just the base casting - no added inlay/zogan, they are mostly complete, just missing the alternate metal faces. A typical example of this is the soten grazing horse theme. I have personal doubts that the mei on these guards were cast in, but that is not for today.

I have one a guard with a theme that I believe is similar to your example. Although I have no confirmation, I believe it could depict poet Li Bai, who derived inspiration while sighting a waterfall. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Steves87
wrong word

[SteveM]

The paper is from 1979, and its from the sword shop "Tōken Shibata" (signed by its proprietor, SHIBATA Mitsuo).

Says the tsuba is a Sōten tsuba, and that it depicts the theme of "High Men Viewing the Waterfall" (高士観瀑).

[Bugyotsuji]

Koushi 高士 could also be (a) virtuous man/men, Steve.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, SteveM said:

The paper is from 1979, and its from the sword shop "Tōken Shibata" (signed by its proprietor, SHIBATA Mitsuo).

Says the tsuba is a Sōten tsuba, and that it depicts the theme of "High Men Viewing the Waterfall" (高士観瀑).

Steve, many thanks for taking the time on such a modest item. I just needed to know why such an obviously rough little tsuba had “papers”. Obviously done by the dealer to hype up its saleability…..which worked because a couple of hundred years later I bought it!🙂
Thanks to all for your comments and guidance…..I promise to do better next time.

All the best 

Colin

[Bugyotsuji]

Colin, there are rules of thumb for paperwork too!

Before ranking them in order of degrees of infallibility to fallibility (which we have attempted to accomplish more than once before here) it’s probably safe to say that none of them are 100% reliable.

 

Once that is out of the way, which colour of paper, from which organization, and for what object, will become the focus of concern.

 

Always remember too that opinions here will split before you’ve taken two steps.

 

Despite this, there are helpful guidelines, and there are exceptions (mines). 
 

For example someone might say that NBTHK papers are the most reliable. Someone might then object, pointing out that they had a bad patch in the past, “so avoid their old green papers”, or “the Tōsōgu board are less strict nowadays than the sword board!”, etc.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, those "white looking papers" are “dealer’s” papers.  I learned something new (again!).

 

As Steve stated the papers say-

 

“The paper is from 1979, and its from the sword shop "Tōken Shibata" (signed by its proprietor, SHIBATA Mitsuo).

Says the tsuba is a Sōten tsuba, and that it depicts the theme of "High Men Viewing the Waterfall" (高士観瀑).”

 

So, those papers are 44 years old, not bad!

 

Then Colin adds-

 

“Obviously done by the dealer to hype up its saleability…..which worked because a couple of hundred years later I bought it!🙂”

So, if I would happen to come across a tsuba with white papers is that something that could be reliable? 

 

But then again as Piers stated –

 

….”there are rules of thumb for paperwork too! Before ranking them in order of degrees of infallibility to fallibility (which we have attempted to accomplish more than once before here) it’s probably safe to say that none of them are 100% reliable.”

 

Oh well, still interesting stuff! 

 

I wonder, do those “white papers” state what period or year the dealer says the tsuba was made (perhaps Piers D and/or SteveM- maybe you can give me a clue-it would be much appreciated!)

 

Something like that could be great information to add to the “known background” of the tsuba for the purchaser (Colin).

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[SteveM]

The papers tell you the artist is Sōten (more specifically, Mōgarashi Sōten) so the tsuba is from the time when Sōten lived. I think late 1700s or very early 1800s. 

 

Sōten then became a kind of brand name for these genre of tsuba, so there are a ton of not-so-great pieces out there. This paper, from one of the better sword shops, implies that this tsuba is actually hand-made by Mōgarashi Sōten himself, and the writing on the back is a guarantee of the quality. But, this paper wouldn't be as trustworthy as one from NBTHK. Well, its subjective, but I think most outside observers would look at that paper as "nice to have" but not necessarily authoritative. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Perhaps I should add a qualification to one of my statements above. None of the paperwork is 100% reliable, I said, but perhaps it would have been better to say 100% all of the time. I feel sure that the NBTHK aims hard for 100%, especially *since 1982, and they do have a very good reputation.

 

It must be good, because at least one other organization uses the 'same' envelopes and the same colo(u)rs of paperwork, so that you do need to quickly check the name of the organization etc., or it could get a free pass.

 

A couple of years back I was hit with an NTHK paper that alleged something, all signed and sealed, that turned out not to be true. Only one time, but it knocked a hole in my personal confidence and my wallet. Others may have had better experiences. Thus the NTHK in my own mind is the second best paperwork to have, after the NBTHK.

 

*NBTHK papers? How long did the blue-green papers run, etc.? Quick guide.

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