nihonto flaws

[spanish men]

Does anyone know what this type of defect is called? It is mortal?
What I can say is that this defect is in the wrist, it's like a small crack but it doesn't open anymore, it's only on the left side, since the right one is perfect, the crack doesn't seem to get bigger, but it is stable

[NewB]

Hi there,

 

Is it on both sides of the blade? Is it on the cutting edge or the spine?

 

Looking at it I think it could be removed by a certified togishi (very expensive). I usually do not acquire nihonto with such issues.

 

If the flaw is on the cutting edge - fatal - "hagire".

 

J.

[spanish men]

is it on the mune , only in one side 

[NewB]

Based on what I see as a current stage of polish of the blade I wouldn't worry about it.

 

You're not going to cut stuff with it, right?

 

There are other , more informed members here but most will not overlook this and most likely pass on either purchasing or restoring the blade (unless a big name or sentimental value that can't be ignored)

 

 

 

J.

[spanish men]

well , i dont want to cut annything , but i like to imagin if someone use this blade in a real samurai battle, it will broke because of this damage................. is just my imagination hahaha

[Ray Singer]

As I replied on a couple of the Facebook groups earlier, this looks like a munegire. 

[NewB]

 

Thank you @Ray Singer. Never met that term before. You learn something every day.

 

cheers

 

J.

[spanish men]

and what is a mune gire ? i didnt find anny info in internet

 

[NewB]

  On 2/9/2023 at 1:31 PM, spanish men said:

and what is a mune gire ? i didnt find anny info in internet

 

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Same as "hagire" but on the mune.

 

From a member and an old thread on here:

 

"It is a crack that forms perpendicular to the blade's edge. Usually it will be seen on both sides of the edge. If not, it could be a scratch in the ha. It is considered fatal because it could lead to a broken blade in battle."

 

 

J.

[spanish men]

yeah but mine is not in the two sides, only in one , so its not a hagire i think 

[NewB]

You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m new to this, Ray however has been doing it for over 35 years…

 

J.

[spanish men]

also , the damage is not in the ha is in the mune , so what interest me is to  know if this little damage in the mune ( only in one side of the blade) is a fatal damage , conclusion , if munegire is a fatal damage 

[NewB]

  On 2/9/2023 at 2:06 PM, spanish men said:

also , the damage is not in the ha is in the mune , so what interest me is to  know if this little damage in the mune ( only in one side of the blade) is a fatal damage , conclusion , if munegire is a fatal damage 

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I think it is. If your mune meets a flying katana strike near that flaw I think it'll brake in half, therefore - fatal.

 

J.

[Ray Singer]

You can read about munegire here. 

 

https://markussesko.com/2019/08/27/destructive-sword-testing/

[spanish men]

but mune hire is in both side of the blade  ??

 

[NewB]

Fatal flaws are perpendicular to the blade's length such as what your photo is showing. The area around it has a different hue than the rest of the blade.

 

Also the mune is considerably thicker so ... Nobody knows how deep that is..

 

I'd Send it to a professional polisher if it's that important!

 

J.

[Matsunoki]

I’ve read this thread a couple of times and I’m a bit confused….and we haven’t yet got a definite answer I think.

This is a flaw (crack)in the mune (munegire) not in the edge. A similar flaw in the edge (hagire) is definitely viewed as “fatal”

However personally I would not view the damage we see here as fatal……am I wrong?

(and it is only a different colour because someone has abraded it presumably to get a better look)

Fatal or not fatal?

[rematron]

When I blow up the picture it looks like the munegire goes at least a quarter of the way through the mune. Or is that just the photo being misleading? If it is indeed a quarter of the thickness deep and I were a samurai, I’d immediately start looking for a new sword. 
 

If you’ve ever watched ‘forged in fire’, blades with flaws like that break often. It’s considered ‘fatal’ in functionality. 

[spanish men]

this blade is hira zukuri , and yes , meaby the other owner tried to repair it 

 

[Matsunoki]

  On 2/9/2023 at 3:53 PM, rematron said:

When I blow up the picture it looks like the munegire goes at least a quarter of the way through the mune. Or is that just the photo being misleading? If it is indeed a quarter of the thickness deep and I were a samurai, I’d immediately start looking for a new sword. 
 

If you’ve ever watched ‘forged in fire’, blades with flaws like that break often. It’s considered ‘fatal’ in functionality. 

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Hi Jeremy

I agree with all you say 100% (often enjoy Forged in Fire…amazing talents) but I’m trying to get the “official answer”….is munegire viewed as a fatal flaw in the same way as hagire?

[John C]

  On 2/9/2023 at 2:20 PM, spanish men said:

but mune hire is in both side of the blade  ??

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A:

Another consideration is not knowing what caused the mune-gire. There could be something structurally wrong inside the core of the blade you cannot see. So a determination as to whether or not it is fatal probably cannot be made without expert analysis. 

John C.

[Alex A]

Hate to say it but im guessing a Samurai wouldn't feel too confident about it.

[rematron]

  On 2/9/2023 at 5:53 PM, Alex A said:

Hate to say it but im guessing a Samurai wouldn't feel too confident about it.

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And isn't that generally the basis of how the determination of "fatal flaw" is derived from a collector's perspective? 

[Ooitame]

From what I see I would not trust it.

[Baba Yaga]

My guess, Area looks like someone already cleaned that spot up a little and determined it has issues.

Without being a photo keyboard jockey, have a polisher take look.  That's if you want to spend money and time. That's up to you. 

[Brian]

Personally, I do not consider mune-giri like this to be fatal. They aren't through the hamon and it would take considerable force to break there....plus the force is towards closing it, not opening it. I know it may be undesirable and maybe something to give a user pause, but under the rules we have about flaws, I don't see this mentioned as fatal. And that's assuming it's a crack and not an open shinae ware. Also easy to repair, since you are not breaking the hamon. Just my opinion though.

[rematron]

A small perpendicular surface crack begs the question "If that's what I can see on the surface, what might be connected underneath and how far does it go? What is hidden?Can I really trust that this blade won't break on me when I need it the most?"  A striking force would be closing it but a blocking force could be opening it.  So maybe a poorer samurai would keep it if they were forced to.  I guess I'm surprised if this isn't considered a fatal flaw (if indeed it's a crack and not a shinae ware). I believe it's perfectly reasonable to think that no smith would consider selling a blade with this flaw to a samurai if it had come out of the forge like that.  He'd probably toss it and start over.

[Ken-Hawaii]

You're looking at the wrong question. From a collector's viewpoint, ANY gire is fatal, because it seriously devalues the blade, & makes it uncollectible. From an engineer's standpoint, a partial mune-gire has little, if any, impact on the blade's usability. From a martial artist's consideration, I wouldn't trust that blade, if another sword was available, but I would use your blade if was the only one I had for a battle. Practically, is the gire on a tanto or a tachi? Longer blades allow more bending/torquing forces, that could impact a failure mode.