spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 Does anyone know what this type of defect is called? It is mortal? What I can say is that this defect is in the wrist, it's like a small crack but it doesn't open anymore, it's only on the left side, since the right one is perfect, the crack doesn't seem to get bigger, but it is stable Quote
NewB Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 Hi there, Is it on both sides of the blade? Is it on the cutting edge or the spine? Looking at it I think it could be removed by a certified togishi (very expensive). I usually do not acquire nihonto with such issues. If the flaw is on the cutting edge - fatal - "hagire". J. Quote
spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Posted February 9, 2023 is it on the mune , only in one side Quote
NewB Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 Based on what I see as a current stage of polish of the blade I wouldn't worry about it. You're not going to cut stuff with it, right? There are other , more informed members here but most will not overlook this and most likely pass on either purchasing or restoring the blade (unless a big name or sentimental value that can't be ignored) J. Quote
spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Posted February 9, 2023 well , i dont want to cut annything , but i like to imagin if someone use this blade in a real samurai battle, it will broke because of this damage................. is just my imagination hahaha Quote
Ray Singer Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 As I replied on a couple of the Facebook groups earlier, this looks like a munegire. 1 Quote
NewB Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 Thank you @Ray Singer. Never met that term before. You learn something every day. cheers J. Quote
spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Posted February 9, 2023 and what is a mune gire ? i didnt find anny info in internet Quote
NewB Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 1:31 PM, spanish men said: and what is a mune gire ? i didnt find anny info in internet Expand Same as "hagire" but on the mune. From a member and an old thread on here: "It is a crack that forms perpendicular to the blade's edge. Usually it will be seen on both sides of the edge. If not, it could be a scratch in the ha. It is considered fatal because it could lead to a broken blade in battle." J. Quote
spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Posted February 9, 2023 yeah but mine is not in the two sides, only in one , so its not a hagire i think Quote
NewB Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m new to this, Ray however has been doing it for over 35 years… J. Quote
spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Posted February 9, 2023 also , the damage is not in the ha is in the mune , so what interest me is to know if this little damage in the mune ( only in one side of the blade) is a fatal damage , conclusion , if munegire is a fatal damage Quote
NewB Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 2:06 PM, spanish men said: also , the damage is not in the ha is in the mune , so what interest me is to know if this little damage in the mune ( only in one side of the blade) is a fatal damage , conclusion , if munegire is a fatal damage Expand I think it is. If your mune meets a flying katana strike near that flaw I think it'll brake in half, therefore - fatal. J. Quote
Ray Singer Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 You can read about munegire here. https://markussesko.com/2019/08/27/destructive-sword-testing/ Quote
spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Posted February 9, 2023 but mune hire is in both side of the blade ?? Quote
NewB Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 Fatal flaws are perpendicular to the blade's length such as what your photo is showing. The area around it has a different hue than the rest of the blade. Also the mune is considerably thicker so ... Nobody knows how deep that is.. I'd Send it to a professional polisher if it's that important! J. Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 I’ve read this thread a couple of times and I’m a bit confused….and we haven’t yet got a definite answer I think. This is a flaw (crack)in the mune (munegire) not in the edge. A similar flaw in the edge (hagire) is definitely viewed as “fatal” However personally I would not view the damage we see here as fatal……am I wrong? (and it is only a different colour because someone has abraded it presumably to get a better look) Fatal or not fatal? Quote
rematron Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 When I blow up the picture it looks like the munegire goes at least a quarter of the way through the mune. Or is that just the photo being misleading? If it is indeed a quarter of the thickness deep and I were a samurai, I’d immediately start looking for a new sword. If you’ve ever watched ‘forged in fire’, blades with flaws like that break often. It’s considered ‘fatal’ in functionality. 1 Quote
spanish men Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Posted February 9, 2023 this blade is hira zukuri , and yes , meaby the other owner tried to repair it Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 3:53 PM, rematron said: When I blow up the picture it looks like the munegire goes at least a quarter of the way through the mune. Or is that just the photo being misleading? If it is indeed a quarter of the thickness deep and I were a samurai, I’d immediately start looking for a new sword. If you’ve ever watched ‘forged in fire’, blades with flaws like that break often. It’s considered ‘fatal’ in functionality. Expand Hi Jeremy I agree with all you say 100% (often enjoy Forged in Fire…amazing talents) but I’m trying to get the “official answer”….is munegire viewed as a fatal flaw in the same way as hagire? 1 Quote
John C Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 2:20 PM, spanish men said: but mune hire is in both side of the blade ?? Expand A: Another consideration is not knowing what caused the mune-gire. There could be something structurally wrong inside the core of the blade you cannot see. So a determination as to whether or not it is fatal probably cannot be made without expert analysis. John C. 1 Quote
Alex A Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 Hate to say it but im guessing a Samurai wouldn't feel too confident about it. Quote
rematron Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 5:53 PM, Alex A said: Hate to say it but im guessing a Samurai wouldn't feel too confident about it. Expand And isn't that generally the basis of how the determination of "fatal flaw" is derived from a collector's perspective? Quote
Ooitame Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 From what I see I would not trust it. Quote
Baba Yaga Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 My guess, Area looks like someone already cleaned that spot up a little and determined it has issues. Without being a photo keyboard jockey, have a polisher take look. That's if you want to spend money and time. That's up to you. Quote
Brian Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 Personally, I do not consider mune-giri like this to be fatal. They aren't through the hamon and it would take considerable force to break there....plus the force is towards closing it, not opening it. I know it may be undesirable and maybe something to give a user pause, but under the rules we have about flaws, I don't see this mentioned as fatal. And that's assuming it's a crack and not an open shinae ware. Also easy to repair, since you are not breaking the hamon. Just my opinion though. 1 2 Quote
rematron Posted February 9, 2023 Report Posted February 9, 2023 A small perpendicular surface crack begs the question "If that's what I can see on the surface, what might be connected underneath and how far does it go? What is hidden?Can I really trust that this blade won't break on me when I need it the most?" A striking force would be closing it but a blocking force could be opening it. So maybe a poorer samurai would keep it if they were forced to. I guess I'm surprised if this isn't considered a fatal flaw (if indeed it's a crack and not a shinae ware). I believe it's perfectly reasonable to think that no smith would consider selling a blade with this flaw to a samurai if it had come out of the forge like that. He'd probably toss it and start over. Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted February 10, 2023 Report Posted February 10, 2023 You're looking at the wrong question. From a collector's viewpoint, ANY gire is fatal, because it seriously devalues the blade, & makes it uncollectible. From an engineer's standpoint, a partial mune-gire has little, if any, impact on the blade's usability. From a martial artist's consideration, I wouldn't trust that blade, if another sword was available, but I would use your blade if was the only one I had for a battle. Practically, is the gire on a tanto or a tachi? Longer blades allow more bending/torquing forces, that could impact a failure mode. 2 Quote
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