Some help/info on this blade, Probably Bizen?

[Jorgensen]

Gentlemens,

 

I hope for a little help with this sword. To me it seems a Koto Bizen blade. But I have no idea of what school it could be and can only guess on a more exact date of the blade, value, a.s.o.... Its obvious that the nakago has been cut down and remounted. Polish is newer and in new Shirasaya.

 

Some info:

Hada seems mokume, with some itame

Hamon and boshi are active... some kind of gunome-midare in nioi, with hada visible in hamon.

Nagasa: 24"

Motohaba 1 and 1/16"

Sakihaba 3/4"

Motogasane 1/4"

Sakigasane 3/16"

Kissaki: 1 and 1/4"

 

I really appreciate your oppinions and help on this blade.

Thanks, regards Jimi

[Jorgensen]

Some more pics on blade...

[Jorgensen]

Yes... yet some more pics...

[Jorgensen]

The last pictures of it... The watermark is from the rezizer program... Thanks

[Mark Green]

Hi Jimi,

It is hard to tell form these pics, but my guess would be Suriaged.

That is my word for a newer sword made to look like an older sword.

It looks nice though.

Were these pics from the dealer/seller. or do you have a way to take some close ups of the kissaki, and nakago, hada, and all.

Many or these pics are just the same thing over and over.

I'll explain more later.

I could be totally off on this, but something just doesn't seem right.

Mark G

[Ted Tenold]

I would want to see this blade in hand before being sure, but there's three things that bother me about it;

 

1) The nakago is very "crusty" and dry looking.

2) The yakiba looks to taper down and fall off the edge as it approaches the sabigawa (rust border) on the sashiura.

3) A couple of the images show a *profuse* amount of chikei that are very large and lack-luster.

 

Because of these things, I'd be on the lookout for Saiba (retemper).

 

As always, it's difficult to say conclusively from images, and these, as Mark pointed out, don't give a great deal of variety to see more. So it's not a "for sure", just an observation to consider.

 

Be careful and take a lot of time looking.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

May I am wrong, but if we speaking about a koto bizen blade, what about utsuri ? I use the zoom of my picture software, but can't saw it on theses pictures.

 

Saiba or sue-bizen could explain this... or my (bad) eyes ?

Could you enlight me on this point ?

 

thanks

 

Sébastien

[Ted Tenold]

Utsuri would be a feature to look for in Bizen work. But it is not mandatory can vary in strength, form, and presence depending on smith, school, and period, none of which can be determined by the photos.

[Jorgensen]

Hello,

 

Really nice with some feedback. It raises some questions to me:

 

Mark G:

Thanks for your input. Could you explain to me, why you think the sword could be "suriaged"? You are right about the pictures, they could be less - sorry. But there are actually closeup of nakago, kissaki and hada amongst them. I took the pictures myself. The best I can do, Im no expert photographing Japanese swords.

 

Ted Teonold:

Thanks as well for taking your time. Your oppinion on Saiba is interesting too. -I have noticed this myself, but had my thoughts on that when nakago has been cut down, all the "mountings" (handle, habaki and everythings) moves, and must in some way give another look on nakago/yakiba/sabigawa, than a sword that nakago never was cut down? -sorry my english, hope you will understand what I mean. The other question that comes to me is that if you retemper a sword, is must have a cost for tempering, polishing aso. Why would someone spend that money? And if retempered, when do you think this eventually was done. Im just curious.

 

Sébastien:

Thanks to you too. Yes, had my thoughts on utsuri. Grabbed some of my books and there are some examples of it. But Saiba or sue-bizen is a good question then? I sure would like some comments on this as well?

 

Of course it is difficult to judge from pictures. I have seen some swords over the years myself, and nakago looks okay to me with the rust, when having it in my hands and think pictures might easily cheat a bit. BUT - I sure could be wrong as well - I have not been a collector for decades either and I greatly appreciate your oppinions. It gives some thoughts

 

Jimi

[reinhard]

Hi Jimi,

 

I'm inclined to believe this sword was retempered. One particular feature pointing towards this direction is the Ha-Hada (Hada clearly visible within the Yakiba). This can be seen often in retempered blades. This could be due to a poor polishing job as well though. This katana was polished by a togishi from a minor league. Hadori finish looks stiff and awkward and lacks refined taste. - Another irritating feature are mekugi-ana. The "older" one (below the "actual" mekugi-ana) looks quite fresh, particularly on the inside. The nakago seems to be shortened in a quite careless manner, judging from nakago-jiri. All in all, it looks like a retempered katana trimmed to look old, but this is just a guess on the basis of pics and we all know what that means.

 

reinhard

[Mark Green]

Hi Jimi. and gang,

Suriaged, is a word told to me by a Tsuba sensi. It means just like Reinhard and I said. A newer sword, made to look Koto by cutting of a bit of the Nakago, helping the patina on the nakago and polishing it down to a thickness that may make some think Old Koto Bizen.

I have owned, and seen many of these in the past few years. This sword is a great canidate for this because of the great Chikei like structure of the hada. The chikei in you sword is not nie clusters, like you would see in old Masamune swords. It is shiny and hard looking and squiggles all around, even in the Ha. Likely some other steel, mixed with the normal Tamahagane. This is what I have been told. I do not know this to be a sure thing.

I noticed the nakago-Yasurime can be seen, making me say Why? was this sword shortened. Unless it was to go in some ww2 mounts, or damage of some kind? It looks to have been shortened only a couple inches?? Hard one to call.

The backdrop you used make very bad reflections on your sword, making most of the pics look straight black and white. It is very hard to see the true color of the steel.

I'm not sure about the retemper part. As I have not seen enough of this to be any judge.

But, this hadori seems to hide so much that I just say Hummmm? One of the reasons I hate Hadori period!

I had a sword once that looked very much like this one, for years we called it the mystery sword. Wonderful hada, great shinny chikei, sweet chogi with long ashi, Sold as Koto-Bizen, and it was pinked as shinshinto/meji suriaged!

So, of corse there is no way to tell much from pics, but that is about all I can tell you.

It just doesn't look right to me. Very pretty in it's own way though.

And like always, I could be way off. I'm not on the NTHK shinsa team.

Just something you may want to question.

Cheers, Mark G

[Guido]

Oh my, where to start?

Suriaged, is a word told to me by a Tsuba sensi. It means just like Reinhard and I said. A newer sword, made to look Koto by cutting of a bit of the Nakago, helping the patina on the nakago and polishing it down to a thickness that may make some think Old Koto Bizen.

"Suriage" simply means "shortened" (and "Ō-suriage" implies that it was shortened to a degree that the original signature is lost). Su-ri-a-ge, not suri-"aged". Maybe that "Sensei" should stick to Tsuba?

This sword is a great canidate for this because of the great Chikei like structure of the hada. The chikei in you sword is not nei clusters' date=' like you would see in old Masamune swords. It is shiny and hard looking and squiggles all around, even in the Ha. Likely some other steel, mixed with the normal Tamahagane. [/quote']Chikei are always Nie formations along the fold lines of the Hada; it's called Kinsuji in the Ha. Hataraki depend on the temperature the sword was quenched at and the steel properties. Chikei are usually darkish, but Masamune was known for whitish, bright Chikei.

As Reinhard' date=' and I noticed the nakago-jiri can be seen, making me say Why? was this sword shortened.[/quote']The Nakago-jiri is the tip of the Nakago, whether original or shortened. If you can't see the Nakago-jiri you're dealing with a partially invisible sword.

Many swords were shortened to adjust the length. This is especially true for Kotō-Tachi when remounted as Uchigatana.

But, this hadori seems to hide so much that I just say Hummmm? One of the reasons I hate Hadori period!

There's a good reason why 9 out of 10 swords are polished Hadōri. See Polishing and Conservation in the articles section for more detailed information. However, the Hadōri of this swords looks really awful - a good Hadōri should "flow", not having abrupt dips and such.

 

Oh, and since I know Reinhard: I'm reasonably sure that the both of you were not exactly on the same page in your respective posts ...

[paulb]

Sorry Guido beat my reply by 3 minutes! and said the same thing but in more detail

[Mark Green]

Hey thanks Guido.

Thats what I get for trying to write when I'm half awake

Ya, I ment to say, The Nakago Yasurime. My bad, was in a rush.

'Suriaged' is just a 'WORD' used to describe a new sword (Shinto, or newer) that has been made Suriage, and polished down many times to make some people think it is an old Koto sword. It seems to be very common. Maybe there should be a word for it. My word is 'Suriaged'

Do you think the Chikei like formations in this steel are real chikei??? Yes chikei is nie. Sometimes dark, sometimes not. But, from these pics, I would say this is not Nei. But I'm not holding the sword.

And of course swords were shortened for many reasons. To me, this one just didn't look like some koto swords shortened for Uchigatana use. To me it looked like a sword shortened to fool someone, or maybe go into a ww2 "D'handle mount.

I know all the reasons for Hadori. I still hate it! It masks so much sometimes. That unless you are holding a sword (like I'm not doing with this one) you sometimes can't see squat! I like my girls without makeup too.

I was actually quite impressed with how crisp this ugly hadori is. If it does follow the Yakiba then he had some great talent.

If I was way off what you were thinking Reinhard, Sorry Bro

Like allways, these observations were made from pics. And are just my opinion.

 

Guido, Do you feel this is a Koto Bizen Sword?

 

Mark G

[Guido]

'Suriaged' is just a 'WORD' used to describe a new sword (Shinto, or newer) that has been made Suriage, and polished down many times to make some people think it is an old Koto sword. It seems to be very common. Maybe there should be a word for it. My word is 'Suriaged'

I'm around Nihontō for more than 30 years, but never heard that expression. OTOH, it sounds like a lot of fun to make up words. Here are some of my suggestions:

 

life deterioration = advant-aged

Lao Wai ("old foreign"), Chinese for foreigners = alien-aged

worn-out Sageo = band-aged

fake inherited title = baron-aged

deteriorating sight = blind-aged

stale beer = brew-aged

making green bananas look like yellow ones = fruit-aged

3.8 litres = gallon-aged

worn out clothes = garb-aged

teenager looking older than he is = man-aged

what cannabis does to you = pot-aged

Spam® = saus-aged

amputation = stump-aged

[Jean]

Old tied sword = bond-aged

[Mark Green]

Ok I get your point.

:lol: