Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 Hallo and thanks I bought this katana a few days ago and am just not sure which era it may date from ? I think Koto maybe. The nakago is dark almost black , it is signed Yuki Mitsu ( I think ) . The Nagasa is 30 inches. Any ideas on age ? thank you Chris Quote
NewB Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 Hello Yukimitsu niji mei and sugata suggest koto per my recent studies. Shinsa could tell whether it is sho shin (there are many knowledgeable members that could help also). I wish you took photos without the habaki as that usually could tell the overall blade health etc. Would love to see more photos of the kissaki and hada.. Cheers J. Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 Ok thank you, it’s a katana which is why I am thinking it’s not that old. The habaki is so tight I can’t actually get it off ! I can try harder I guess. The kissaki is hard to see it’s a bit obscured by some surface rust but looks like a small kissaki . The blade has funbari about twice as wide at the base as near the kissaki. The Hada looks to be masame Quote
NewB Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 6:06 AM, Francis Wick said: Ok thank you, it’s a katana which is why I am thinking it’s not that old. The habaki is so tight I can’t actually get it off ! I can try harder I guess. The kissaki is hard to see it’s a bit obscured by some surface rust but looks like a small kissaki . The blade has funbari about twice as wide at the base as near the kissaki. The Hada looks to be masame Expand Indeed Sounds like you're aware of nihonto considering the terminology you use 😉 Obviously forcing the habaki out is NOT what anyone would recommend. What's the motogasane? J. 1 Quote
DoTanuki yokai Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 I think seordsmits know their own names and don’t make mistakes in their signatures. Then I can see that the blade tapers but I cannot see Fumbari, would be nice to see if the Hamon runs into the Nakago. I think that this blade is Gimei and Suriage. Maybe it looks very different without the Habaki and you could also show the other side of the Nakago. Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 Hi J no not really ,but google is a wonderful thing ! I spent a bit of time tying to learn what attributes a blade might have to place it on a timescale of history. I’ll try in the morning to move the habaki and take a picture of both sides and measure the motogasane. The blade is in a safe where the dog sleeps. He’s old so if a wake him up he will be up and wanting outside so I’ll get it out in a few hours. Thank you for looking at my post and commenting on it , I sure appreciate it and am excited to see what the experts think. I’m sure it takes years of study to get better at judging the age and school of a Nihonto. Do you think the mei is YUKIMITSU ? It’s possibly also YUKIMOTO ? thank you muchly indeed Francis Quote
Soshin Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 Looks Koto to me, but I am no expert, only a Tsuba Otaku. Please do not force the habaki off. You need special tools for that. I would recommend sending the sword to a professional Japanese sword polisher for inspection and he can remove the habaki safely using special tools and techniques. He can give you an idea of the quality of the blade and its approximate age. Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 12:04 PM, DoTanuki yokai said: I think seordsmits know their own names and don’t make mistakes in their signatures. Then I can see that the blade tapers but I cannot see Fumbari, would be nice to see if the Hamon runs into the Nakago. I think that this blade is Gimei and Suriage. Maybe it looks very different without the Habaki and you could also show the other side of the Nakago. Expand Ok thank you so much I will measure the actual width I see I am not being precise enough for folks to help me. My apologies. It is hard to help without the blade in hand. I’ll post pics in a few hours when ye olde doge is up. Thank you so very much. I’ll try harder to get the habaki off or at least out of the way and then take pics and post them. Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 12:06 PM, Soshin said: Looks Koto to me, but I am no expert, only a Tsuba Otaku. Please do not force the habaki off. You need special tools for that. I would recommend sending the sword to a professional Japanese sword polisher for inspection and he can remove the habaki safely using special tools and techniques. He can give you an idea of the quality of the blade and it approixmate age. Expand On 2/7/2023 at 12:06 PM, Soshin said: Looks Koto to me, but I am no expert, only a Tsuba Otaku. Please do not force the habaki off. You need special tools for that. I would recommend sending the sword to a professional Japanese sword polisher for inspection and he can remove the habaki safely using special tools and techniques. He can give you an idea of the quality of the blade and it approixmate age. Expand Ok David thank you. I won’t do anything violent or stupid. I read up a bit on sword care and won’t start cleaning or rubbing or forcing anything. The handle does have real nice gold fittings on it so maybe it is a better blade. The Tsuba was missing so perhaps it’s just gone or maybe it was nice and someone took it off. Quote
DoTanuki yokai Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 It is Mitsu, Moto would only have one Horizontal small line on top. Quote
NewB Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 12:04 PM, Francis Wick said: Hi J no not really ,but google is a wonderful thing ! I spent a bit of time tying to learn what attributes a blade might have to place it on a timescale of history. I’ll try in the morning to move the habaki and take a picture of both sides and measure the motogasane. The blade is in a safe where the dog sleeps. He’s old so if a wake him up he will be up and wanting outside so I’ll get it out in a few hours. Thank you for looking at my post and commenting on it , I sure appreciate it and am excited to see what the experts think. I’m sure it takes years of study to get better at judging the age and school of a Nihonto. Do you think the mei is YUKIMITSU ? It’s possibly also YUKIMOTO ? thank you muchly indeed Francis Expand Yes, Google works. Take your time. If it's 30" nagasa - you have something. Now that's assuming a lot but I like to stay positive. Many great folks here. Better photos and accurate measurements will definitely contribute for them to chime in so once you're ready , we'll be eager to hear. Cheers J Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 1:04 PM, DoTanuki yokai said: It is Mitsu, Moto would only have one Horizontal small line on top. Expand Ok thank you so much indeed Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 12:13 PM, Francis Wick said: The handle does have real nice gold fittings on it so maybe it is a better blade Expand Can we see them please? Looks an old blade to me…..interesting. Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 Thank you for the advice and input the motogasane is 4 mm and the nakago is thicker in the middle at 6mm I posted measurements at the base and end of the blade it tapers quite a bit the hamon drops off the edge before going into the nakago it doesn’t continue into the nakago there is utsuri ( if I’m looking at the correct feature a dark line above the hamon ?? ) Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 The habaki is solid silver the handle missing the wrapping and the fittings nice and old but not signed and not “ high end “. The saya is cracked and beat up handachi type . I don’t think the blade has been shortened but I’m a total novice …… Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 3:05 PM, Matsunoki said: Can we see them please? Looks an old blade to me…..interesting. Expand Posted thank you Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 2:42 PM, NewB said: Yes, Google works. Take your time. If it's 30" nagasa - you have something. Now that's assuming a lot but I like to stay positive. Many great folks here. Better photos and accurate measurements will definitely contribute for them to chime in so once you're ready , we'll be eager to hear. Cheers J Expand On 2/7/2023 at 4:06 PM, Francis Wick said: Posted thank you Expand On 2/7/2023 at 4:06 PM, Francis Wick said: Posted thank you Expand Thank you so much I added a few measurements , and pics I sure have high regard for everyone’s time and knowledge 🙏🏽 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 Francis Are you really sure the hamon does not continue into the nakago? To me it looks like the ha and mune machi (the notches that separate tang from blade) have been moved up the blade (called machi okuri) to create a slightly shorter blade/longer tang. Thus imagine the blade width continued …..in the image it does look like the hamon continues…..although it has not been polished and would not show up as well. The fuchi kashira have a great subject….tigers….but they are not a true pair (they should be) ….the fuchi has the bi-metal body which would have been replicated in the kashira. I guess they just used whatever tiger fittings were available. The menuki are showy but average quality. Mismatched fittings is by no means unusual……samurai were mostly rather poor! Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 2:42 PM, NewB said: Yes, Google works. Take your time. If it's 30" nagasa - you have something. Now that's assuming a lot but I like to stay positive. Many great folks here. Better photos and accurate measurements will definitely contribute for them to chime in so once you're ready , we'll be eager to hear. Cheers J Expand I am sorry it is 2 mm short of 30 inches 😞 Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 4:17 PM, Matsunoki said: Francis Are you really sure the hamon does not continue into the nakago? To me it looks like the ha and mune machi (the notches that separate tang from blade) have been moved up the blade (called machi okuri) to create a slightly shorter blade/longer tang. Thus imagine the blade width continued …..in the image it does look like the hamon continues…..although it has not been polished and would not show up as well. The fuchi kashira have a great subject….tigers….but they are not a true pair (they should be) ….the fuchi has the bi-metal body which would have been replicated in the kashira. I guess they just used whatever tiger fittings were available. The menuki are showy but average quality. Mismatched fittings is by no means unusual……samurai were mostly rather poor! Expand I must be a samurai then ! 😂😂 yes as far as I can make out the hamon slopes down as it goes into or at least near the nakago . The nakago it substantially thicker than the blade most likely due to many polished I would think. It has been polished plenty as it has “openings “ in the metal grain Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 4:19 PM, Francis Wick said: I must be a samurai then ! 😂😂 yes as far as I can make out the hamon slopes down as it goes into or at least near the nakago . The nakago it substantially thicker than the blade most likely due to many polished I would think. It has been polished plenty as it has “openings “ in the metal grain Expand It is katana mei not tachi mei so probably not pre 1500 anyway ….. Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 4:22 PM, Francis Wick said: It is katana mei not tachi mei so probably not pre 1500 anyway ….. Expand Not necessarily..the Mei could be added later - at any time- sometimes quite a bit later! and on either side of the nakago. Does anyone else think this could be Machi okuri? In which case it could easily have been over 30” originally. Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 7, 2023 Report Posted February 7, 2023 I’ll make a twit of myself - long, strong taper, slender, graceful koshi(?) sori, kokissaki, masame hada…..old Tachi? I’m sure “someone” here is waiting to highlight my lack of knowledge! Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 6:15 PM, Matsunoki said: Not necessarily..the Mei could be added later - at any time- sometimes quite a bit later! and on either side of the nakago. Does anyone else think this could be Machi okuri? In which case it could easily have been over 30” originally. Expand That makes sense and I noticed a ware just below the machi on one side likely created by polishing which strengthens an argument for shortening or machi raising Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 6:23 PM, Matsunoki said: I’ll make a twit of myself - long, strong taper, slender, graceful koshi(?) sori, kokissaki, masame hada…..old Tachi? I’m sure “someone” here is waiting to highlight my lack of knowledge! Expand Well me a big newbie so I know noting useful. It looks polished lots, thick nakago thin blade. If the mei was added later it may explain why a katana mei appears on an older blade. Sounds more and more like shortened or machi okuri Quote
Francis Wick Posted February 7, 2023 Author Report Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 4:17 PM, Matsunoki said: Francis Are you really sure the hamon does not continue into the nakago? To me it looks like the ha and mune machi (the notches that separate tang from blade) have been moved up the blade (called machi okuri) to create a slightly shorter blade/longer tang. Thus imagine the blade width continued …..in the image it does look like the hamon continues…..although it has not been polished and would not show up as well. The fuchi kashira have a great subject….tigers….but they are not a true pair (they should be) ….the fuchi has the bi-metal body which would have been replicated in the kashira. I guess they just used whatever tiger fittings were available. The menuki are showy but average quality. Mismatched fittings is by no means unusual……samurai were mostly rather poor! Expand I went and looked under a different light at different angles, and I think you might be correct. I think the hamon does extend into the nakago after all. The more I look at it and the more I think about it I do believe it has been shortened. Quote
Rivkin Posted February 8, 2023 Report Posted February 8, 2023 Well, the sugata is ok for Muromachi say 1500 and the nakago is consistent with sue-Bizen. The signature is in the right place and I don't want to check the books on whether its written ok, the steel feels Muromachi (though its hard to be sure based on these photographs) and they did suguha like this at the time. On the negative the patination towards the upper portion of the nakago is highly uneven suggesting something was done rather recently and the signature written is a bit too deep in my opinion. I would prefer the strikes to be a bit more shallow and not to stand out nearly as much with respect to yasurime... So yes on koto, hard to say on whether its Bizen original or the signature was added a bit later. 1 Quote
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