Enjoy some photos of my wakizashi and the rather unique hamon

[Brian]

Man. Some days I really wish Guido was still around.

[Jacques D.]

Quote

I could point out that all of you conveniently IGNORED the wildly different Sukenake and Van Gogh signatures

They can in no way be compared

 

at 44.55 

 

 

[Gimmick]

40 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

They can in no way be compared

 

at 44.55 

 

 

I'm not saying signatures on a painting and signatures in steel can be compared, I'm saying people ignored the fact that the papered Sukenake signatures differ SIGNIFICANTLY, yet they are all papered, when the statement by Brian was "It only takes one kanji to be really off for someone to state with reasonable confidence a sword is gimei. Smiths were consistent." That may or may not be true for some smiths, but clearly not for Sukenake or whoever signed for him.

[Gimmick]

On 12/7/2022 at 2:22 AM, Dan tsuba said:

Hello Kirill R.,

 

I quote your previous post below-

 

“The article's title I am afraid suggests its unprofessional in everything except the corrosion.

You can't date an excavated sword with a given precision and its unlikely to be that old.

Cast swords are (mostly) nonsense. There are old swords made from pure iron though.

Next thing we'll see photographs comparing the sword's size to a pack of cigarettes.”

 

So, you can always contact the authors of the abstract to ascertain how “unprofessional” the article is.

 

And what are your references to verify your statements.  Without references you are just “bullying” and stating rhetoric.

 

I have seen too much of this style of posts on the forum.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

On 12/9/2022 at 3:51 AM, Rivkin said:

 

Jacques, I admit to seldom being able to respond to your comments due to certain functionality of the forum.

Truth is born in the arguments... among friends. Or at least some semblance of such. Not in claims who says "nonsense" or not.

Similar courtesy was and is extended to Guido, Darcy, Reinhard and a number of their friends, Currant and others. Every collecting subject has a group of friends-dealers-"did it for 30 years" folks. I do admire their loyalty to one other.

 

Part of my attitude, admittedly, stems from a certain level of bigotry: social, educational, otherwise. Part of it however is admitting inability to address rather complicated technical issues in a format which would be compatible with hostile forum-based exchanges.

 

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Man. Some days I really wish Guido was still around.

 

You might miss the in-crowd, but you might want to open your eyes and ears to feedback from the out-crowd. It might enrich this forum you devote so much love, time and money to. Heck, you might even learn something! For example, that smiths are not that consistent!

[Bugyotsuji]

I have a beautiful tanto by Sukekane which I sent off and got papered. They overlapped a bit but the son took over from around Meiji 5. Just recently a Meiji 5 Sukekane by the father was discovered, I heard, moving back the assumed handover date.

[Brian]

You're completely missing the point. Gimei isn't about comparing mei with the same smith's signatures alone. It's about knowing HOW they are carved, and knowing tiny little traits and stroke directions and seeing more than just a 2D image.
You need to ready the large chapter on gimei in the Nihonto Koza. But that's not gonna happen.

[Gimmick]

1 hour ago, ChrisW said:

I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak. However, you came here with intention to seek their opinions, you got it and then you decided you didn't like what you heard. Gimei is very common and means very little in terms of what the sword's actual quality could be. There are gimei swords out there made by VERY prominent smiths whom have a much lower-regarded gimei signature. Often, those false signatures are removed and then the blade papers just fine. In the case of your sword, I would take it to a Japanese sword show and show it to a trained polisher... or bite the bullet and sign up for a Shinsa slot. But I have to agree with the others here, even to my relatively inexperienced eye, the signature appears a bit too clumsy and chunky compared to a legitimate Sukekane mei. Think of this as a forensic handwriting comparison. This is a real Japanese sword, seemingly well-made, but the signature does not match how Sukekane signed. BUT the work could still be papered to him, on workmanship alone, but that signature poses a problem it would appear.

As for the debate on terminology: these words aren't academic words (though proper terms are favored in academia), they're merely best-fit descriptors that quite literally describe as they appear. If anyone of the samurai class were alive today to read these words in their native kanji, they'd understand them because they are simple, best-fit words. Nihonto collecting has always been a well-regarded tradition in Japan, so it'd be unlikely that they'd laugh or be offended by foreigners collecting them. I think they'd be more offended that someone didn't take the time to be studious enough to use the proper names for something and instead fumble about what they're trying to describe.

Lastly, YES, collectors DO get a lot of books! It is necessary to educate yourself much as you would get a college education by 'hitting the books' in a field where there is a lot of technical knowledge. Books are cheaper, easier to preserve, and contain a lot more information in a much denser space. It would be insanity to even try to understand ANY of the Gokaden (the five great sword traditions) or even minor schools based on example blades alone; books are necessary to begin to have a solid grasp. If you don't believe me, talk to any properly-trained sword polisher alive today.



These gentlemen offered you their sincere and educated opinions free of charge, not something you can really get in any other field without forking over money or waiting a long time. You might not like the result and may be disappointed with it, but neither should you be an ungrateful guest by acting in such a manner. And FYI, no, we all come from different walks of life, nationalities, etc.

 

 

Which part of "satire" and "I jest" don't you guys understand? You are proofing my point exactly, you guys take things waaaaaaaaay too seriously. And you become hostile in the process. I'm not the first to remark on this. And frankly, there is a lot of arrogance. When I satirically and playfully reflect that arrogance, you guys start circling the wagons and grab hold of your crosses and pitch forks. I've shown gratitude for the input numerous times and I still intend to donate to the forum. Unless Brian thinks I'm not only wasting my time on Japanese swords, but also wasting my money on this forum? Are you above my contribution? I'll send you 50 USD right now, just say the word, and my money is yours. Also, my sword account serves emperor administrator Brian, if I am no use I will happily end my life stop posting.

 

[Gimmick]

"I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak. However, you came here with intention to seek their opinions, you got it and then you decided you didn't like what you heard."

 

I came here to share a wakizashi with a nice hamon, nothing more! I asked for opinions like "hmmm, I prefer them straight", or "wow, that's beautiful", or "that reminds me of so and so", you guys turned it into "SHOW US THE NAKAGO" and made it all about signatures.

 

I just thought I'd share a nice sword with people that would appreciate it and rejoice in an antique sword being found. The only persons to do so were Dan tsuba and this fine gentleman:

On 2/5/2023 at 1:06 PM, robinalexander said:

Thanks for posting this Ferry, wakizashi is not normally what I collect but I do love your blade 

 

[Brian]

Donations go towards running the forum. If people enjoy it, sometimes they donate. If they don't...so be it. They are not donating to me, but to the NMB. I never let my own feelings get in the way of the forum running, and have had to ban people who were great supporters. So it's completely up to you, you do as you feel is right.
As for the sword, not one person said anything about the sword that was negative. In fact, most of us love it and the hamon. The signature to us isn't a big deal here. None of us worry too much about gimei unless we are the guys who collect polished and papered swords. I have a few gimei, I really enjoy them as much as my papered ones. Don't mistake discussion about signatures for anyone denigrating the blade..it's lovely.
As said, it's completely your choice.

[Bazza]

Gaslighting raised to an art form...  Much ado about nothing...

 

BaZZa.

[Gimmick]

3 minutes ago, Bazza said:

Gaslighting raised to an art form...  Much ado about nothing...

 

BaZZa.

Shower me with your compliments, oh Great Poet of Oz. Very honorable.

[Gimmick]

3 hours ago, ChrisW said:

But I have to agree with the others here, even to my relatively inexperienced eye, the signature appears a bit too clumsy and chunky compared to a legitimate Sukekane mei. Think of this as a forensic handwriting comparison. This is a real Japanese sword, seemingly well-made, but the signature does not match how Sukekane signed.

Again, I don't care either way, I didn't even know Sukekane or any other smith existed a couple of days ago, so how can I be disappointed? But what puzzles me, is that I am lead to believe that when people on this forum state something like this so confidently, almost as fact "the signature does not match how Sukeane signed", I am supposed to take their word for it, rather than question how many Sukekane mei they have seen, and how many Sukekane gimei they have seen, and why exactly they think they are qualified to make such a statement and what exactly it is about the signature on mine vs the others that makes you think it does not match. You guys make me believe you are all at the level of FBI signature experts, superior even, because you take into account 3D movements and flow, and all this is the result of your many years of experience. At the same time you confess that you are often wrong and that even at the top level there is disagreement.

 

But maybe it is all just a sport until there are papers - which you obviously put a lot of faith in, as if these people are infallible and as if there is no possibility of corruption or conflicts of interest. And these people will even demand you remove the gimei before they paper it based on their opinion of the style of the blade? And people submit to that?

 

Typically these type of certification schemes (like Ferrari Classiche certification will cost you $650 to open a file and then it's a matter of thousands of dollars depending on how much they investigate) only serve rich collectors, rich traders and the institutions that certify. And things that begin with the best of intentions (preservation, filtering out fakes) can end up being a cure that is worse than the disease.

 

But now I dare question not only the generous forum members, but even the Gods of NBTHK, I do apologize...

 

It's all simply amazing... Maybe one day in the future, when all gimei have been persecuted into oblivion, a gimei will demand a premium.

[ChrisW]

Matter of the fact is, when people came to the consensus that the signature is gimei, you chose to respond in a manner other than acceptance of the majority opinion of people who are much more educated in the subject and then argued about it ad nauseum. You denigrated peoples' time and knowledge put into this study, and then proceeded to gaslight in an attempt to backpedal. You are discussing in bad faith and using just about every trick to be the victim. Example- "Are you above my contribution? I'll send you 50 USD right now, just say the word, and my money is yours. Also, my sword account serves emperor administrator Brian, if I am no use I will happily end my life stop posting. "

Brian is right. Its a lovely sword. Yes, it is probably gimei. And people here generally have a good sense of what signatures should look like in order to pass Shinsa (the bar to which gimei/shoshin is held).

So... cut the crap and just be honest. If you are being earnest, then let it go. People gave their time to help you. You saying anything more is just trolling and wasting peoples' time. If you don't like the opinion, go elsewhere and ask; but I imagine you'll either hear the same or opinion shop until you hear what pleases you. You cannot claim to be joking in an endearing manner when people are attempting to help you.

 

I've said my piece and will give no more time in this discussion. You got what you asked for, not necessarily what you want, but what was called for.

 

Brian, I am sure you've already checked this guy's IP against known elements.

[Jacques D.]

Detecting a gimei is not so easy. First and foremost you have to see if the work corresponds to what the smith usually does, then you have to see at what point in his career the sword was made. Some smiths are very consistent in their signature, others are not. Then there is the tool, the way of putting it down (inclined or not), the depth, the width, and many other things to take into account like the secrets that exist in some schools (Gassan, Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, etc.)


It's never easy except for rough gimei, for example, I know Kiyomaro's signatures very well and yet once I was wrong... based on one dot i thought is was in the wrong way and Kiyomaro (Masayuki at that time) engraved that dot in both ways

[Okan]

You are one patient man.. @Brian

[Alex A]

Followed the sales of Sukekane swords for several years as his choji has always been of interest. Sometimes you see it and its amazing, other times, well. 

 

Prices have risen, felt to me like all of a sudden folk became interested in Shinshinto, especially Yokoyama

 

Cant ever remember seeing a gimei. not to say there isn't any.

 

Think Colin mentioned Yakidashi in the other thread but never heard back, i think, to se if its present.

 

The person to buy your sword will be the person that does not have to pay an arm and a leg getting it polished. Also, finding a polisher is difficult for a lot of collectors these days.

[Gimmick]

56 minutes ago, ChrisW said:

Matter of the fact is, when people came to the consensus that the signature is gimei, you chose to respond in a manner other than acceptance of the majority opinion of people who are much more educated in the subject and then argued about it ad nauseum. You denigrated peoples' time and knowledge put into this study, and then proceeded to gaslight in an attempt to backpedal. You are discussing in bad faith and using just about every trick to be the victim. Example- "Are you above my contribution? I'll send you 50 USD right now, just say the word, and my money is yours. Also, my sword account serves emperor administrator Brian, if I am no use I will happily end my life stop posting. "

Brian is right. Its a lovely sword. Yes, it is probably gimei. And people here generally have a good sense of what signatures should look like in order to pass Shinsa (the bar to which gimei/shoshin is held).

So... cut the crap and just be honest. If you are being earnest, then let it go. People gave their time to help you. You saying anything more is just trolling and wasting peoples' time. If you don't like the opinion, go elsewhere and ask; but I imagine you'll either hear the same or opinion shop until you hear what pleases you. You cannot claim to be joking in an endearing manner when people are attempting to help you.

 

I've said my piece and will give no more time in this discussion. You got what you asked for, not necessarily what you want, but what was called for.

 

Brian, I am sure you've already checked this guy's IP against known elements.

I did not backpedal at all, in fact I reiterated that I reject your Gospel of Gimei as fantasy, and you try to crucify me for it. Now you burden me with even more fantasies? Checked this guy’s IP against known elements? Are you paranoid? I’ve never been here in my life. This is supposed to give me trust in your expertise?

 

37 minutes ago, Okan said:

You are one patient man.. @Brian

 

A man too proud to take my money and too spineless to take my sword when I call him out for fostering a hostile forum. I repeat: tell me to stop posting and I will gladly do so. Or stop judging me for not drinking the Gimei Kool-Aid and for questioning “experts” that present no evidence whatsoever. Not even one Gimei Sukekane has been posted here! So far they exist only in your collective fantasy! Hate me for speaking the truth, and silence me if you must. I kneel humbly before the administrator.

[Gimmick]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Followed the sales of Sukekane swords for several years as his choji has always been of interest. Sometimes you see it and its amazing, other times, well. 

 

Prices have risen, felt to me like all of a sudden folk became interested in Shinshinto, especially Yokoyama

 

Cant ever remember seeing a gimei. not to say there isn't any.

 

Think Colin mentioned Yakidashi in the other thread but never heard back, i think, to se if its present.

 

The person to buy your sword will be the person that does not have to pay an arm and a leg getting it polished. Also, finding a polisher is difficult for a lot of collectors these days.

Here are the lower parts of several papered Sukekane:

 

As you can see they are not that consistent, and neither is the hamon pattern, but maybe that was the point, because as I've quoted before:

"Special Feature: Yokoyama Sukekane 58 Dai Mago: just because he was the 58th grandson of Bizen Tomonari. Yokoyama school has invented unique “Yokoyama Choji” and flourished. It was unprecedented that they broke the going Choji methods and invented new means."

 

Interestingly, the one that doesn't end more straight is from 1859, whilst my sword is dated 1860 and it looks very much the same.

On 2/5/2023 at 11:50 AM, Gimmick said:

I

 

 

 

[rematron]

*fuel continually being fed to the fire that is this post*

 

"Man, is it hot enough in here already?" 

[Gimmick]

9 minutes ago, rematron said:

*fuel continually being fed to the fire that is this post*

 

"Man, is it hot enough in here already?" 

Are you here to engage in the discussion or are you here to moan? Are you going to post a Sukekane Gimei now or are you going to sit on the bench and keep rooting for the bullies?

[rematron]

The only person I see moaning in this post is you.  

[Matsunoki]

Ferry, I tried to help you early on. I think I gave you the smiths name. I was the one asking for a sight of the nakago (with a glass of red wine in the other hand) because you were asking for opinions (not as you later allege simply comments on the hamon)….you were investigating your family sword……and the nakago is an essential part of evaluating any sword.

In view of your subsequent “performance” I wish to hell I hadn’t bothered.

There is little else anyone can tell you about your nice sword from these images so please, let peace “break out”.

My hunch is that it’s “right”……not that that counts for a bag of beans.

 

[Gimmick]

Just now, rematron said:

The only person I see moaning in this post is you.  

Great comeback! I'm sure it will get many anonymous likes from other brave individuals.

[rematron]

Thanks, I quite liked it myself.  I really like how while attacking the members of the forum, you're also calling them bullies.  Way to keep your options open. 

[Gimmick]

  

1 minute ago, Matsunoki said:

Ferry, I tried to help you early on. I think I gave you the smiths name. I was the one asking for a sight of the nakago (with a glass of red wine in the other hand) because you were asking for opinions (not as you later allege simply comments on the hamon)….you were investigating your family sword……and the nakago is an essential part of evaluating any sword.

In view of your subsequent “performance” I wish to hell I hadn’t bothered.

There is little else anyone can tell you about your nice sword from these images so please, let peace “break out”.

My hunch is that it’s “right”……not that that counts for a bag of beans.

 

 

Read my first post:

On 2/4/2023 at 3:17 PM, Gimmick said:

Hi all,

 

I'm new to the forum. I collect mainly khukuri knives, but I also have this wakizashi. If you have any opinions, I would love to hear them. Personally I am unable to find another nihonto with a hamon quite like this. I won't bother naming it haha.

 

I know this historic piece can use some TLC, but this is how it came to me and I'm in the process of identifying it and depending on the age/"rank" I want to have it done correctly.

 

Regards,

Ferry

How could I have asked for opinions on signatures when I didn't even know if it had one and I wasn't even aware of the existence of Gimei? That ball started rolling much later, and people got upset when I didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

 

There was consensus about WMDs in Iraq, remember how that turned out? Your consensus about Gimei means nothing to me. All of you have zero authority to speak on Mei versus Gimei. That is my opinion, if this offends you, I'm truly sorry.

 

As part of the council of advisors to the emperor Brian, petition him to cancel me and I will bow out.

 

 

 

[NewB]

I think we should just find the best in us to stop whatever that is currently going on.

 

I'm buying a virtual round for all 

 

J.

[rematron]

 Kampai!

[Matsunoki]

41 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

Read my first post:

Read it yourself matey, 

“and I'm in the process of identifying it and depending on the age/"rank" I want to have it done correctly”

 

……like I said, the nakago is essential in identifying any sword. 

[Stephen]

[Gimmick]

7 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Read it yourself matey, 

“and I'm in the process of identifying it and depending on the age/"rank" I want to have it done correctly”

 

……like I said, the nakago is essential in identifying any sword. 

 

On 2/4/2023 at 3:34 PM, Gimmick said:

By the way, I am aware the nakago is very informative, but I'm not ready to mess with the mekugi yet, so I'm going step by step.

Your memory is rather selective, is it not?

 

I am very thankful that you encouraged me to look at the nakago and assisted in the translation. I very much admire the translation skills present on the forum. The only thing I'm rejecting is the "Gimei expertise" that is based on absolutely nothing. Some people take this personally, I guess they think very highly of themselves and have invested their identity and self-worth in their ability to assess Gimei.

 

Why don't we have a friendly bet? Why don't all of you put your money where your mouth is? We go 50/50 on getting certification for this blade (paid to the person who buys it). If it is Gimei, I reimburse the 50% of the "experts" who said so and I apologize for doubting you. If it is not Gimei, you reimburse me my 50% and eat some humble pie. Who wants in?