Enjoy some photos of my wakizashi and the rather unique hamon

[robinalexander]

Thanks for posting this Ferry, wakizashi is not normally what I collect but I do love your blade 

[PNSSHOGUN]

All anyone here has tried to do is help you and explain the reality of Japanese swords and their signatures. If you choose to confirm the Dunning-Kruger effect then that is your choice.

[Gimmick]

Well I'm glad to hear that nihonto collectors and the members of this forum have more honor than the Japanese people that created, traded and bought them  

 

I am not about to invest hundreds or thousands of dollars into a restoration. I am the first person in my family to show any interest in the blade and investigate its identity. In fact, when I previously saw this sword, I didn't even bother looking into it, I kind of assumed it was a mass-production sword for soldiers, because who would bring a priceless sword to war? Also, I had no idea swords came with both fancy stuff and a simple wooden scabbard for storage, so I saw this as a utilitarian sword.

 

Oddly enough, in khukuri world they get a boner for military issue khukuris, but I get the feeling the military history of this particular sword has no added value to nihonto collectors. I almost think a WWII collector would pay more for it knowing it was carried by a Japanese soldier, perhaps the same one that tortured my grandfather on the Burma Railway.

 

I myself am not sentimental about heirlooms. My philosophy as a collector is that I want my items to be with the person that will appreciate them the most, which is not always the person that will pay me the most for it, though when selling something, money is always a factor. So I do see this sword leaving my collection at some point. Before I created this thread, I suspected it could be worth from €600 up to possibly €2000 depending on the signature. Now I am more educated, but if I am to sell it, the money will go towards buying more watches haha.

 

For anyone who is interested, here are some of my khukuri (I don't care for the military issue ones), with a modern Cold Steel Gurkha Kukri (blade length 30.5 cm/12 inch) for reference. The two biggest ones were likely ceremonial or gifts. One came from Brunei, where the Gurkhas guard the Sultan, the other came from Burma, where the Gurkhas fought in WWII. If someone did fight you with the bigger ones, you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. They are actually so similar that I believe them to be made by the same kami (smith).

 

[Okan]

50 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

Fair enough, but if I have to let go of any notions of honor and have to assume the worst in objects and people, why shouldn't I also assume that people on here get sour when a random person who has invested nothing in the study and collecting of nihonto comes up with a possibly very special wakizashi, and they cope with the cognitive dissonance (why does he get a lucky inheritence when I've invested half my life and spent thousands of dollars bla bla bla) with a knee-jerk reaction of GIMEI!!!!!!!! Is that the Land of Reality you want me to come down to? Because wherever I see collectors, be it watches, toy cars, guitars, whatever, the one thing that unites them all is envy.

 

So my gut feeling is saying that some of you are interested in genuinely identifying my sword and learning in the process, and that some of you are interested in feeling better about not being the owner by casting doubt where it may or may not be warranted. Or are all members on this forum above that? Wouldn't that be a bit rosy-eyed?

 

Either way, I asked for opinions in my first post and I appreciate all of them, I was just not prepared for this can of worms and I will now read the Why Gimei thing.

 

t's really sad to hear you calling people jealous who are trying to help you. No one was jealous with your sword. Why would we? 

You are right, most of us spent many years studying Japanese swords and invested in very expensive blades. Just like any serious art collector..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

I would say that according my library this Sukekane looks perfectly legit 

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, Sukekane.

[Gimmick]

2 hours ago, Okan said:

 

t's really sad to hear you calling people jealous who are trying to help you. No one was jealous with your sword. Why would we? 

You are right, most of us spent many years studying Japanese swords and invested in very expensive blades. Just like any serious art collector..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Buddy, I did not call anyone jealous, I was speaking about possibilities and asked if I should apply the same pessimistic skepticism to forum members, and people replied I need not worry.

33 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

I would say that according my library this Sukekane looks perfectly legit 

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

 

1 minute ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Yes, Sukekane.

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Ferry,

 

Welcome to this fantastic forum!

 

I have read this entire thread and I enjoy your views and persistence!  I am mostly a “tsuba” guy.  In some of my threads I have also had to deal with (like you did) some “random opinions”.  Hey, it is just part of the “game” and learning process!  Most everyone on the forum is here trying to help.

 

I have included pictures of a daisho set I have.  I am very proud of it, although others may not even want to display something like this.  Also (and everyone out there I know that this is not a “kukri” forum – but just wanted to share with the “new guy") I collect kukri, and have included a picture of one I have.

 

Like you, I collect many different things!

 

Keep up the good work!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Brian]

Off topic, but I have 4 x genuine wartime Kuk's and one antique general purpose one. Like Kerises, I like the Kukhri a lot.

[Gimmick]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello Ferry,

 

Welcome to this fantastic forum!

 

I have read this entire thread and I enjoy your views and persistence!  I am mostly a “tsuba” guy.  In some of my threads I have also had to deal with (like you did) some “random opinions”.  Hey, it is just part of the “game” and learning process!  Most everyone on the forum is here trying to help.

 

I have included pictures of a daisho set I have.  I am very proud of it, although others may not even want to display something like this.  Also (and everyone out there I know that this is not a “kukri” forum – but just wanted to share with the “new guy) I collect kukri, and have included a picture of one I have.

 

Like you, I collect many different things!

 

Keep up the good work!

 

With respect,

Dan

Thanks for the kind words, Dan. That kukri is lovely, almost a sirupate, but a bit more belly, which is how I like them.

 

I think if you like swords/edged weapons, it's hard to not like them all, medieval European, Asian, Arabian, you name it. For my collection I have limited myself to the khukuri, and I don't even attempt to play with the big boys, I just buy the cheap ones that speak to me.

 

I've read in the FAQ that fate is part of collecting "If it was meant to be part of your collection, it will be either now or sometime in the future. Eventually it all comes back around, or perhaps something better." Now there is some optimism!  

 

As for the fate of "my" sword. It would be great if it shined again, but as with cars, restoration is usually not worth it from an economic perspective. A $15k car might "only" be worth $40k after a $30k restoration, yet plenty of people do it, whilst other people enjoy the patina. I think the hamon on this one deserves a polish though, I find it beautiful, but it won't be me making that expense. I will list it in the sales section and entertain some offers.

[Dan tsuba]

Ferry,

 

I like your thinking!  Your qoute of the statement that "If it was meant to be part of your collection, it will be either now or sometime in the future. Eventually it all comes back around, or perhaps something better." Also "Now there is some optimism!".  I have found that statement definetly applies to my tsuba collecting.  I also collect kukri, keris, and jambiya.

 

Like you also, I don't want to spend the cash to have my daisho set professionally polished (but then my hamon on the set is not as beautiful as yours!).  So I just leave them "as is" and enjoy them as part of my collection (actually almost a "museum" now!)

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Gimmick]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:06 AM, Okan said:

 

 

What makes you think I'm personally not familiar with the style of this smith? Maybe there is a possibility I studied this smith for a long time? Maybe I actually have owned one of his swords? And some experience with identifying swords after years of studying? 

 

If you find a Van Gogh in the attic would you approach it as a fake or real? (in this example Van Gogh is more like Masamune..not Sukekane)

 

To answer your question about the nihonto collector etiquette: 

 

Yes, every sword from a famous smith without papers should be handled as gimei! ..And you may want to be %90 sure before sending it to Japan(shinsa) to get it papered..Would you question me if I told you your sword is real and authentic? I didn't say your sword is gimei..I said it might be..There are 20x more gimei Sukekane than the ones from the actual smith himself..Your blade is out of polish so it's hard to authenticate by the blade itself..Hamon looks correct..but mei is suspicous..Check out the last kanji, Saku, on the attached picture..Do you think they are the same?

 

So what are the possibilities: 

 

Someone copied his work and it's Gimei.

He made the blade himself but was signed by one of his pupils..

He made the blade in an old age, signed himself but due to his age chisel work wasn't as good. (I doubt this)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/5/2023 at 8:06 AM, Brian said:

There are probably more gimei signatures on swords out there, than real ones. The likelyhood of gimei on an unpapered sword is high.
That said, people who study swords a lot get a feel for how flowing and confidently cut a mei is. You can see hesitation or the way the strokes are done. Often gut feel comes into it. That's not to say we aren't often wrong. But this is very much like handwriting. If someone copied your signature, it may read the same, and the characters would be the same. But you could see the person was hesitant and not flowing. You could see where the lines change shape just a little bit. If someone looked at the signature, they may be able to tell it wasn't yours, just by looking at the way it was done. Your signature may change over the years. But it would still be flowing, and you wouldn't show irregular pressure and misshaped lines.
It's like this with mei. Sometimes it's a gut feel. You need to allow for experience in looking at mei. Fwiw, I think this has a good chance to be gimei too. That said, you need to realize that gimei is both common, and doesn't mean the sword it junk. It can be just as good, sometimes better. Just means you allow for the fact that someone else signed it. It's not an insult.

 

On 2/5/2023 at 12:26 PM, Brian said:

It only takes one kanji to be really off for someone to state with reasonable confidence a sword is gimei. Smiths were consistent.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I find the idea that the signature of smiths should be consistent over the years pretty laughable.

 

Let's focus on the suka kanji like Okan did. You see two above in the quote. Here is a papered Sukenake from 1849.

The two "dashes" are in a completely different place compared to the other two signatures, and the vertical line on the left is much longer.

 

And here is a papered Sukenake from 1854.

Here the position of the two dashes are pretty consistent with the very first one, but the kanji above it is very different to the same kanji in the very first one.

 

It is funny Okan should mention Van Gogh. Here is a website about Van Gogh signature authentication: van Gogh Art Authentication | van Gogh Experts

The three signatures shown are very different, especially the "V" and the "t", yet they are from the same year!

 

Again, I mean no disrespect, but could it be that the Nihonto world has become an echo chamber of people screaming Gimei, and splitting hairs to proof their preconceived notions?

If some of the statements about Gimei in this thread were on Wikipedia, you would see this next to it:

For example, Okan stated: "There are 20x more gimei Sukekane than the ones from the actual smith himself.." Really? Says who? Can someone show me 5 gimei Sukekane. Or just two.

 

Maybe the NIhonto community needs more science and statistics and less gut feelings, but what do I know?

[Gimmick]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:13 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

All anyone here has tried to do is help you and explain the reality of Japanese swords and their signatures. If you choose to confirm the Dunning-Kruger effect then that is your choice.

Dunning-Kruger effect or non-conformist critical thinker that is not intimidated by echo chambers?  

[Gimmick]

By the way, Brian, I plan to donate to you/the forum if my sword sells through here, because I'm grateful for this platform, but I won't spare you in any way.  

 

"There are probably more gimei signatures on swords out there, than real ones." Citation needed, Brian! If enough people think this, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

I also object to the following. A papered Sukenake wakizashi sold for $3,300, which might explain the top value you proposed if my one was polished and papered. Then people start calculating backwards to determine the value of "my" one. Polish is $1,000, other stuff is whatever, total restoration $2,500 so it's worth $800 to be on the safe side, or $1,000 if you feel frisky.

 

But wait a second, the current owner isn't supposed to be paying for the restoration, now is he? In the car world you might own a great classic car that's worth $25k. A full restoration will cost you for example $30k. However, already restored examples sell for $45k, so it's not economically viable, people will tell you. It's better to buy the restored one, if you can afford it. But maybe someone really wants their example to be restored, so they pay up anyway. Or maybe all they can afford is an unrestored example. But in no way does this all of this mean that the unrestored car is worth $45k minus $30k = $15k.

 

If there are similar swords out there - "tens of thousands" (!!!!) according to you - in top condition for $3,000, by all means buy them, but don't tell me something is worth $xxx because a higher value would mean you can't break-even if you decide to sell it after YOU (the buyer) decide to restore it. Restoration is almost always a partial write-off on objects below $100k, because of the cost of labor.

 

Of course I try to buy my watches at a price where there is a chance of breaking even if I decide to sell it. No one likes losing money. But for the watches I really like, I pay extra and I don't care about the resale value, because I don't plan on reselling them. So are people here traders? Or are they collectors? So far the people showing interest in buying and restoring my Wak are thinking like traders, expecting ME to pay for THEIR choice to restore it.

 

 

[Gimmick]

And as the Great Reformer and Savior of the Nohinto World - you may call me Miroku* - I name the Hamon on my Wak "coffee creamer".

 

 

*It's called humor, guys.

[Dan tsuba]

Ferry,

 

Great research!  I enjoy your posts!  Look forward to more after the replies come in!

 

With respect,

Dan

[NewB]

I'd mention that by taking the blade for a fresh polish one is also taking the risk of uncovering whatever could be underneath that currently isn't visible - core steel, various forging flaws and other defects that hand forged blades sometimes produce. While I'm a big fan of the school, I'd personally be extremely cautious while doing the math as in the Nihonto world there are quite a few unknowns including the fact that while the signature and date appear legit, the blade is not papered. All that is only my opinion..

 

J.

[Gimmick]

53 minutes ago, NewB said:

I'd mention that by taking the blade for a fresh polish one is also taking the risk of uncovering whatever could be underneath that currently isn't visible - core steel, various forging flaws and other defects that hand forged blades sometimes produce. While I'm a big fan of the school, I'd personally be extremely cautious while doing the math as in the Nihonto world there are quite a few unknowns including the fact that while the signature and date appear legit, the blade is not papered. All that is only my opinion..

 

J.

 

On 2/5/2023 at 8:06 AM, Brian said:

Fwiw, I think this has a good chance to be gimei too. That said, you need to realize that gimei is both common, and doesn't mean the sword it junk. It can be just as good, sometimes better. Just means you allow for the fact that someone else signed it. It's not an insult.

These statements seem contradictory. Part of the crowd seems to be saying it is all about the sword, to heck with the signature, others feel insecure without papers and almost demand every newly uncovered sword comes with them, or at least that the easing of their mind is paid for by the discoverer of the sword. Collectors take risks and collect what they desire, what excites them, what fuels the flame that made them collect in the first place. Traders trade and calculate risks, hoping to make a buck.

 

So are we collectors or are we traders?

 

My favorite show is American Pickers. He is trying to make money, it's his job to buy and sell for a profit, and he is always transparent about it to the person he is picking. "Retail price is so and so, I need to have this and that fixed, I need to have it transported (if it doesn't fit in their van), I need to make some money too, so I'm a player at $xxx." Absolutely fair, and if they are too far apart, they move on to the next item. But sometimes Mike sees something that inspired him to become a picker - usually (a part of) an old bicycle or motorcycle - and all caution is thrown to the wind, his eyes light up, he NEEDS to own it and he pays accordingly, because it is going in his personal collection.

 

So I ask again, are we collectors or are we traders?

 

Ten Basic Rules Every Collector Should Know

1. NEVER get emotional about any sword at any price. Buying on emotion and rationalizing it with logic can lead to the disappointment and regret also known as "buyer's remorse". Auctions are the number one place for emotion to over-rule common sense by building that competitive spirit between "rivals". Establish your limits and budgets and stick to them.
2. Buy what you like and what you can afford. Don't strain the budget looking to acquire. The prudent sequence is; fund comfortably, acquire advantageously, enjoy profusely, learn extensively, liquidate equitably, repeat as needed.
3. Take from the bottom, add to the top. A singular great work carries far more merit in a collection than a room full of low end junk. Great is always great. Junk will always be junk. Always has been, always will be. But starting at the top is not within the capacity of most folks, and starting with lower levels (not junk though) can build experience, knowledge, and savvy. Eventually, as knowledge, experience, and tastes improve, these pieces can be used as markers to augment moving into the next levels, by selling or bartering them into other pieces. Every acquisition should attempt to build equity to a future "better" piece. Take from the bottom, add to the top.

 

This NMB FAQ sounds an awful lot like trading up to me. Then Basic Rules Every Trader Should Know? What is collecting if not emotion? Absolutely no one needs a Nihonto, let alone 20 Nihonto or a $50k Nihonto.

[NewB]

I'm part of the buyers that make an educated decision before they spend their money on blades in need of restoration. If the name of the smith is in the jo jo saku or saijo saku tier then depending on the motogasane and the togishi's opinion I may proceed with the acquisition of the item. As I mentioned-too many unknowns and - clearly nothing contradictory. I'll leave it at that as it seems you've formulated your opinion regardless. 

 

I thought I'd contribute by touching on another angle/subject of the blade's acquisition thoughts process of the beginner collector or broker.

 

J.

[Gimmick]

12 minutes ago, NewB said:

I'm part of the buyers that make an educated decision before they spend their money on blades in need of restoration. If the name of the smith is in the jo jo saku or saijo saku tier then depending on the motogasane and the togishi's opinion I may proceed with the acquisition of the item. As I mentioned-too many unknowns and - clearly nothing contradictory. I'll leave it at that as it seems you've formulated your opinion regardless. 

 

I thought I'd contribute by touching on another angle/subject of the blade's acquisition thoughts process of the beginner collector or broker.

 

J.

Don't get me wrong. I don't discourage your approach, I find it very wise, all I'm saying is that it lacks passion. Collectors are all about the hunt, this approach seems to be focused on the end result and on the economics. What happened to the journey being more important than the destination? The journey is passion. I hope you experience passion in the selecting of a blade for restoration, I hope you rejoice in the unknowns. Restoration might be passion in itself, but who is paying for it?

[Gimmick]

This is THE HUNT. This is PASSION.*1

 

This man was on his deathbed, and he was telling the others how he once lost $3k on a Nihonto and how he enjoyed every minute of it.*

 

 

 

 

*1 You are entitled to your own style of collecting, in the manner that makes you feel comfortable.

*2 Fake news.

[NewB]

To each their own. I was only chiming in so folks understand the depth of the rabbit hole

 

J.

[Okan]

For me, and most of us here, it's not about the hunt! We are not hunting toy cars or watches..%99 of the time there are no Japanese Swords hidden in an antique shop or flea markets. If you knew the Nihonto world, you would also agree on this. We study and learn something each day. This is what really excite most of us. We don't spend our days on ebay or marktplaats looking for someone selling a cheap blade actually worth a lot. Thats what lower end dealer does(I don't judge them..lots of dealers in Japan are also doing this)..they risk money..they buy a rusty blade..polish it..paper it..sell it, if they can. 

 

There are high-end dealers who know what their customer would like..There are dealers who wants to sell 3k swords for 10k..There are collectors who wants to buy 10k swords for 3k...If you don't want to be fooled, you have to know what you are buying.

 

My last comments on Gimei:

 

Once, someone offered me a Gassan sword(another great maker). Mei checks, style checks...everything seems in order and he asks for 15k(honest price for Gassan).but it doesn't have papers..He says he bought the sword from an old wealthy Japanese guy who lives here in Amsterdam, owns a restaurant called "Hosokawa". Japanese guy said to him that he was inherited the sword by his family..His family name is "Hosokawa", a very powerful Japanese clan, so dealer thinks this sword is really Gassan!

 

I asked if the sword was papered..it wasn't. I offered him 4k which was a decent amount to risk. He didn't agree so I didn't buy it. I simply didn't want to invest 15k for a sword without being %100 sure it's Gassan, not a copy.(even if it look great) So I bought something else. 

 

Dealer couldn't sell the sword so he decided to send it to Japan(shinsa for papers). Turned out, sword indeed was Gimei. Sword indeed belonged to the Hosokawa family. They were gifted a Gimei Gassan sword and they didn't even know about it.(how could someone gift them a gimei sword right?) 

 

So If I bought it and wanted to sell it after getting bored, I would lose 10k..

 

Here is another story:

 

In the beginning of 17th century, there was a swordsmith called Yasutsugu working under Hideyasu family..He was an extremely talented and great smith so he was summoned to Edo(Tokyo) by the Tokugawa Shogunate and became the Kaji(in house official smith) of Tokugawa family.

 

He is also one of the first smiths who worked with Nanban(foreign) steel which came to Japan with the famous Dutch ship "De Liefde".  One day, Tokugawa himself ordered Yasutsugu to make Gimei blades of famous swordsmiths so he could gift them when he needed to...He made some great copies, hard to differentiate,...He didn't sign them, someone else with better chisel work copied the signatures for him. I'm sure some of his copies were better than the copied smiths. 

 

So Gimei doesn't always mean it's a "fake" sword. Collectors don't always yell GIMEI to every sword without papers! We say, it might be Gimei! Sometimes, if the price is decent, we buy swords and don't care about the papers cause we like them so much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

I think you have a TON of learning to do. Much of what you refuste has been proven by a 1000 years of Japanese sword tradition and study.
You could ask the NBTHK how many gimei there are vs real swords submitted. I think you'd be surprised. I am not going to cite stats here, since everything you are asking has been published hundreds of times in sword books. When you have 100+ books on the subject, come back and see how much you want to argue.
Btw, as far as polishing goes, the advice here has always been to do it for the love of the sword, not for financial gain. The fact that the financial return is seldom the reason is expressed over and over.
That said, collectors by nature don't want to just throw away money. You always want to know your collection has some value. Otherwise just go out and overpay and purchase an instant collection. You can get anything you like if you have the money/
So much of what you say above is simply not true, but requires years of study. We can't provide instant gratification. Most of the more advanced collectors aren't participating in this thread, for obvious reasons.

[PNSSHOGUN]

9 hours ago, Gimmick said:

Dunning-Kruger effect or non-conformist critical thinker that is not intimidated by echo chambers?  

You need to go to Japan right now and tell all the collectors, organizations and museums they have it all wrong. Only you, with a few nights of google searching, knows exactly what Nihonto represents and what is genuine or fake!

[Jacques D.]

I would like to know what leads Okan to say that this sword is gimei

 

Quote

I think you have a TON of learning to do

 

He is not the only one here (follow my look). 

[Gimmick]

I could point out the sophistry in Brian's reply, I could point out the ad hominem disguised as sarcasm in PNSSHOGUN's reply, I could point out that all of you conveniently IGNORED the wildly different Sukenake and Van Gogh signatures that I presented to you, and that you chose instead to hide behind "100+ books on the subject" and "all the collectors, organizations and museums in Japan", but I'm not here to argue. I'm just gauging this community with a bit of satire. And it seems to me that what unites the Nihonto community is not a passion for swords, but a passion for academics. It seems to me that you don't collect hand forged metal weapons, but you collect books, papers, and most of all, Japanese words describing hand forged metal weapons.

 

Have you guys stepped back and looked at yourselfs lately? Here is a random advertisement:

"Shinogi zukuri, iore mune, chu kissaki.  There are bo-hi and soe-hi on either side of the blade.  Small itame hada with ji-nie.  The hamon is nioi deki in groups of choji midare, quite exuberant, and becomes midare-komi in the boshi with a shortish kaeri.  The nakago is ubu, one hole.  The blade is flawless; there are no defects.  Other than for a small smudge just above the habaki on the omote the sword is in polish.  It is mounted with a fine solid silver habaki in well made shairsaya (the polish, habaki, & shirasaya were done in Japan, I believe).  This comes with a Hozon paper from the NBTHK in Tokyo, dated 2014, attesting to the signature and quality.  Also included is a full length oshigata laid loose on a hanging scroll (from a Japanese dealer) and a silk-like bag for the shirasaya.  Everything is in excellent condition."

 

To quote the Great Australian Poet Bazza: Jeez, spare me!!

 

 

I jest, I see the value in using the Japanese terminology. But I think the Samurai that actually used them would wet themselves laughing seeing a bunch of "straight white cisgender old men"* memorize this GLOSSARY (suddenlink.net). I still jest, I admire your dedication. But I still propose you guys are in love with academics rather than Japanese swords. And those same Samurai might tell you that dissecting a Sakura into a thousand pieces and naming each of them will not reveal its soul.

 

*I'm not even remotely woke, but I bet one of these Nihonto meetings looks an awful lot like this!

 

In all seriousness, I hope my satire sparks some new passion in some of you, and gives others the courage to speak up and go against the grain, or should I say, go against the Hada?

 

 

MIC DROP (look it up boomer  )

 

_{Found your reading glasses? "Mic Drop and Drop the Mic are expressions referring to the practice of intentionally letting a microphone fall to the ground as a display of bold confidence following a successful performance. Colloquially, the expressions have also been used to celebrate the delivery of an impressive argument or insult."}

[Gimmick]

9 hours ago, Okan said:

For me, and most of us here, it's not about the hunt! We are not hunting toy cars or watches..%99 of the time there are no Japanese Swords hidden in an antique shop or flea markets. If you knew the Nihonto world, you would also agree on this. We study and learn something each day. This is what really excite most of us. We don't spend our days on ebay or marktplaats looking for someone selling a cheap blade actually worth a lot. Thats what lower end dealer does(I don't judge them..lots of dealers in Japan are also doing this)..they risk money..they buy a rusty blade..polish it..paper it..sell it, if they can. 

 

There are high-end dealers who know what their customer would like..There are dealers who wants to sell 3k swords for 10k..There are collectors who wants to buy 10k swords for 3k...If you don't want to be fooled, you have to know what you are buying.

 

My last comments on Gimei:

 

Once, someone offered me a Gassan sword(another great maker). Mei checks, style checks...everything seems in order and he asks for 15k(honest price for Gassan).but it doesn't have papers..He says he bought the sword from an old wealthy Japanese guy who lives here in Amsterdam, owns a restaurant called "Hosokawa". Japanese guy said to him that he was inherited the sword by his family..His family name is "Hosokawa", a very powerful Japanese clan, so dealer thinks this sword is really Gassan!

 

I asked if the sword was papered..it wasn't. I offered him 4k which was a decent amount to risk. He didn't agree so I didn't buy it. I simply didn't want to invest 15k for a sword without being %100 sure it's Gassan, not a copy.(even if it look great) So I bought something else. 

 

Dealer couldn't sell the sword so he decided to send it to Japan(shinsa for papers). Turned out, sword indeed was Gimei. Sword indeed belonged to the Hosokawa family. They were gifted a Gimei Gassan sword and they didn't even know about it.(how could someone gift them a gimei sword right?) 

 

So If I bought it and wanted to sell it after getting bored, I would lose 10k..

 

Here is another story:

 

In the beginning of 17th century, there was a swordsmith called Yasutsugu working under Hideyasu family..He was an extremely talented and great smith so he was summoned to Edo(Tokyo) by the Tokugawa Shogunate and became the Kaji(in house official smith) of Tokugawa family.

 

He is also one of the first smiths who worked with Nanban(foreign) steel which came to Japan with the famous Dutch ship "De Liefde".  One day, Tokugawa himself ordered Yasutsugu to make Gimei blades of famous swordsmiths so he could gift them when he needed to...He made some great copies, hard to differentiate,...He didn't sign them, someone else with better chisel work copied the signatures for him. I'm sure some of his copies were better than the copied smiths. 

 

So Gimei doesn't always mean it's a "fake" sword. Collectors don't always yell GIMEI to every sword without papers! We say, it might be Gimei! Sometimes, if the price is decent, we buy swords and don't care about the papers cause we like them so much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I enjoyed your post and story Okan, thank you.

[Brian]

You know the story about the guy who reached rock bottom, and has now started to dig? You're wasting your time with Japanese swords. Really wasting it. Stick with mass produced weapons from countries that speak English. You realize that even Kukhri are described in traditional terms, right? So are Keris. Adapt or die....I see you are choosing the latter. Jy mors jou eie tyd, asook almal s'n.

As for Jacques...keep going. Any minute now I'm going to realize we don't really need a troll under the bridge.

[ChrisW]

I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak. However, you came here with intention to seek their opinions, you got it and then you decided you didn't like what you heard. Gimei is very common and means very little in terms of what the sword's actual quality could be. There are gimei swords out there made by VERY prominent smiths whom have a much lower-regarded gimei signature. Often, those false signatures are removed and then the blade papers just fine. In the case of your sword, I would take it to a Japanese sword show and show it to a trained polisher... or bite the bullet and sign up for a Shinsa slot. But I have to agree with the others here, even to my relatively inexperienced eye, the signature appears a bit too clumsy and chunky compared to a legitimate Sukekane mei. Think of this as a forensic handwriting comparison. This is a real Japanese sword, seemingly well-made, but the signature does not match how Sukekane signed. BUT the work could still be papered to him, on workmanship alone, but that signature poses a problem it would appear.

As for the debate on terminology: these words aren't academic words (though proper terms are favored in academia), they're merely best-fit descriptors that quite literally describe as they appear. If anyone of the samurai class were alive today to read these words in their native kanji, they'd understand them because they are simple, best-fit words. Nihonto collecting has always been a well-regarded tradition in Japan, so it'd be unlikely that they'd laugh or be offended by foreigners collecting them. I think they'd be more offended that someone didn't take the time to be studious enough to use the proper names for something and instead fumble about what they're trying to describe.

Lastly, YES, collectors DO get a lot of books! It is necessary to educate yourself much as you would get a college education by 'hitting the books' in a field where there is a lot of technical knowledge. Books are cheaper, easier to preserve, and contain a lot more information in a much denser space. It would be insanity to even try to understand ANY of the Gokaden (the five great sword traditions) or even minor schools based on example blades alone; books are necessary to begin to have a solid grasp. If you don't believe me, talk to any properly-trained sword polisher alive today.



These gentlemen offered you their sincere and educated opinions free of charge, not something you can really get in any other field without forking over money or waiting a long time. You might not like the result and may be disappointed with it, but neither should you be an ungrateful guest by acting in such a manner. And FYI, no, we all come from different walks of life, nationalities, etc.