Enjoy some photos of my wakizashi and the rather unique hamon

[Okan]

3 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Sukekane??….I’m tired and a bit blurred!!!,

 

Yup..

[Okan]

Hamon is legit but looks a bit Gimei to me..maybe it's the rust I don't know. 

[Gimmick]

14 minutes ago, xiayang said:

If you need a little help, here's a transcript:

 

  Hide contents

友成五十八代孫

 

安政七年二月日

 

備前長船住横山祐包作

 

I'm so confused by the modern kanji 八! It looks so different in the metal. I have compared my nakago with the one below, and the kanji on the left are identical. If I compare that to what you wrote "友成五十八代孫", I am willing to take your word for it haha.

 

 

So the 58th generation? That means this man?

"Special Feature: Yokoyama Sukekane 58 Dai Mago: just because he was the 58th grandson of Bizen Tomonari. Yokoyama school has invented unique “Yokoyama Choji” and flourished. It was unprecedented that they broke the going Choji methods and invented new means."

 

February Ansei 7, that is 1860? So from what I'm gathering, this is a pretty special wakizashi?

 

Thanks for all the help everyone!

[Gimmick]

23 minutes ago, Okan said:

Hamon is legit but looks a bit Gimei to me..maybe it's the rust I don't know. 

Gimei as in counterfeit? It belonged to my Dutch grandfather who survived working on the Burma Railway (aka the Death Railway) as a POW (though he was a civilian) and he somehow ended up with the sword of a Japanese soldier. Are you implying a Japanese soldier brought a counterfeit sword to serve him on the battlefield? And rust on a sword that has been through World War II makes it counterfeit, because...?

 

If you are going to disrespect this wakizashi by calling it counterfeit or a counterfeit signature, I'd like you to add some solid arguments other than "rust".

[Okan]

3 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

Gimei as in counterfeit? It belonged to my Dutch grandfather who survived working on the Burma Railway (aka the Death Railway) as a POW (though he was a civilian) and he somehow ended up with the sword of a Japanese soldier. Are you implying a Japanese soldier brought a counterfeit sword to serve him on the battlefield?

 

I'm not sure about this one but yes it's highly possible..Many Japanese swordsmiths copied other "famous" swordsmiths' style and signatures. But even if it's Gimei, still a very nice sword made by a Japanese smith in 19th century..

 

 

[Gimmick]

26 minutes ago, Okan said:

 

I'm not sure about this one but yes it's highly possible..Many Japanese swordsmiths copied other "famous" swordsmiths' style and signatures. But even if it's Gimei, still a very nice sword made by a Japanese smith in 19th century..

 

 

In the other collector's world I'm familiar with, which is wrist wratches, when people say 'fake' they also come up with reasons. Like: the serial is wrong. Or: the letters in the logo are misaligned. Either way, there are clear, telltale signs. I still hear no reasons other than "it used to happen a lot". Is this nihonto collector etiquette of gewoon oud-Hollandse kift? Er is (statistisch gezien) een grote kans dat mijn of jouw vader niet onze biologische vader is, maar dat roep je toch ook niet tegen je moeder of tegen een vreemde zonder goede reden!

[Okan]

7 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

In the other collector's world I'm familiar with, which is wrist wratches, when people say 'fake' they also come up with reasons. Like: the serial is wrong. Or: the letters in the logo are misaligned. Either way, there are clear, telltale signs. I still hear no reasons other than "it used to happen a lot". Is this nihonto collector etiquette of gewoon oud-Hollandse kift?

 

I'm not saying it's Gimei..I said it's possible! And the reason is the way your swords mei was chiseled. It looks a bit amateurish(mei) when I compare it to other papered(officially authenticated) examples...

 

 

 

 

 

[rematron]

Gimei is extremely common in the world of Nihonto. It’s not a reflection of the quality of the sword but a mechanism to attempt to sell it for more money back in the day to attribute it to a well known smith. A lot of swords weren’t even signed when they were made for a variety of reasons. When evaluating a blade, the mei is the last thing that an expert looks at.  The more well regarded the smith, the greater chance of gimei. It’s not an insult, it’s just opinions of people that have spent a decade or more staring at Nihonto in person and in photographs.  Stylization of mei is important and different smiths have different writing styles and can be imitated good or bad.  

[Okan]

And Gimei is pretty common in Japanese swords..It's not like a fake rolex made in Bangladesh...it's more like Fake Rolex made by Panerai..or sometimes made by Swatch..

 

[Gimmick]

If it helps the experts to assess the statement that it looks "amateurish" by Okan, here is a comparison with an identical piece:

 

[Okan]

Why are you aggressive I'm trying to help you..

 

[Gimmick]

8 minutes ago, rematron said:

Gimei is extremely common in the world of Nihonto. It’s not a reflection of the quality of the sword but a mechanism to attempt to sell it for more money back in the day to attribute it to a well known smith. A lot of swords weren’t even signed when they were made for a variety of reasons. When evaluating a blade, the mei is the last thing that an expert looks at.  The more well regarded the smith, the greater chance of gimei. It’s not an insult, it’s just opinions of people that have spent a decade or more staring at Nihonto in person and in photographs.  Stylization of mei is important and different smiths have different writing styles and can be imitated good or bad.  

Be that as it may, accusations or guesses are easily made, but who is going to say otherwise other than those two organizations in Japan who want to see the sword in person? And it might not be an insult, but like I wrote in Dutch to Okan, statistically there's a high probability that my father or the father of someone reading this is not their biological father, but you better have good reason to say so before you tell that to your mother or a stranger! Your nose looks different isn't gonna cut it haha.

 

I understand that even very talented painters might choose to copy the masters, either to make money or for the kick of passing as something real, so I can understand the same can be true for nohinto, but even as someone new to this subject, when I look at the whole sword and the hamon in particular, I don't see why the sword smith wouldn't want to make a name for himself considering his obvious talent.

[Gimmick]

3 minutes ago, Okan said:

Why are you aggressive I'm trying to help you..

 

You've accused people before of being aggressive, it seems you are quick to jump to conclusions in all areas of life. I'm not being aggressive, I'm just questioning your questioning.

[rematron]

Often it wasn’t about making a name for yourself but putting food on the table. And I wasn’t implying that the smith himself falsified a name on his sword (although I suppose that’s a possibility) but more likely done by someone else at a later date. 
 

Also, there are experts all over the world that can accurately evaluate a Nihonto. Getting it papered by a Japanese organization is only going to be useful to make it easier to sell or pass on the provenance to someone else. 
 

[Gimmick]

38 minutes ago, rematron said:

 Stylization of mei is important and different smiths have different writing styles and can be imitated good or bad.  

My question is: unless someone is personally familiar with the style of this smith, why would anyone (in this case Okan) assume it looks gimei and amateurish? I'm an expert in certain fields myself and I only make such statements when I'm 90% sure.

 

35 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

If it helps the experts to assess the statement that it looks "amateurish" by Okan, here is a comparison with an identical piece:

 

 

These two look pretty darn identical to me. Assuming the one on the right is the real thing (I forgot where I found it but it was some fancy sword with papers) you'd have to have it physically next to you to mimic it to this level.

 

So that's why I'm asking: is it nihonto collector etiquette to just throw doubt around?

[rematron]

15 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

My question is: unless someone is personally familiar with the style of this smith, why would anyone (in this case Okan) assume it looks gimei and amateurish? I'm an expert in certain fields myself and I only make such statement when I'm 90% sure.

 

So that's why I'm asking: is it nihonto collector etiquette to just throw doubt around?

There was not an assumption that it was gimei. It was stated as a possibility by experience and knowing the popularity of the smith. So I guess the answer to your second question is: YES. People in Nihonto like to be pleasantly surprised rather than largely disappointed so when viewing poor photos and lack of all other asked for things such as measurements and full comprehensive images of the blade from tip to butt, there will be a fair amount of skepticism as it definitely comes with the territory. 
 

Also keep in mind that though you may love the look of that hamon now in 2023 (I do also), it was not necessarily a desirable look for everyone back in the day. 

[Gimmick]

11 minutes ago, rematron said:

There was not an assumption that it was gimei. It was stated as a possibility by experience and knowing the popularity of the smith. So I guess the answer to your second question is: YES. People in Nihonto like to be pleasantly surprised rather than largely disappointed so when viewing poor photos and lack of all other asked for things such as measurements and full blade pictures, there will be a fair amount of skepticism as it definitely comes with the territory. 
 

Also keep in mind that though you may love the look of that hamon now in 2023 (I do also), it was not necessarily a desirable look for everyone back in the day. 

So if this gimei phenomenon is so common, how can there be "experts all over the world that can accurately evaluate" this or any sword? How would they have been able to see enough genuine swords by <insert smith> to confidently assess which blade length, width, depth of curve etc indicate an original sword by said smith?

[rematron]

Years of training and education provided by mentors who learned the same way and reading a ton of books and going to shows. Life long dedication to the art.  

[Gimmick]

If anyone has any evidence that there are gimei out there for bizen osafune yokoyama sukekane saku, please share, because I can only find "real" ones with NBTHK papers, two of which also happen to be wakizashi. And the signature on for example the katana is also very "thickly" chiseled and full of "triangles". I couldn't even write two identical signatures with a pen on paper if my life depended on it, so I don't know what the threshold is for chiseled signatures that might be years apart.

 

 

Katana: Bizen Koku Osafune Ju Yokoyama Sukekane Saku | Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art (aoijapan.com)

Wakizashi(Sunnobi Tanto):Bizen Osafune Yokoyama Sukekane Saku | Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art (aoijapan.com)

Wakizashi: Bizen Kuni Osafune Yokoyama Sukekane Saku | Japanese Sword Online Museum (aoijapan.net)

[Okan]

29 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

My question is: unless someone is personally familiar with the style of this smith, why would anyone (in this case Okan) assume it looks gimei and amateurish? I'm an expert in certain fields myself and I only make such statements when I'm 90% sure.

 

 

These two look pretty darn identical to me. Assuming the one on the right is the real thing (I forgot where I found it but it was some fancy sword with papers) you'd have to have it physically next to you to mimic it to this level.

 

So that's why I'm asking: is it nihonto collector etiquette to just throw doubt around?

 

 

What makes you think I'm personally not familiar with the style of this smith? Maybe there is a possibility I studied this smith for a long time? Maybe I actually have owned one of his swords? And some experience with identifying swords after years of studying? 

 

If you find a Van Gogh in the attic would you approach it as a fake or real? (in this example Van Gogh is more like Masamune..not Sukekane)

 

To answer your question about the nihonto collector etiquette: 

 

Yes, every sword from a famous smith without papers should be handled as gimei! ..And you may want to be %90 sure before sending it to Japan(shinsa) to get it papered..Would you question me if I told you your sword is real and authentic? I didn't say your sword is gimei..I said it might be..There are 20x more gimei Sukekane than the ones from the actual smith himself..Your blade is out of polish so it's hard to authenticate by the blade itself..Hamon looks correct..but mei is suspicous..Check out the last kanji, Saku, on the attached picture..Do you think they are the same?

 

So what are the possibilities: 

 

Someone copied his work and it's Gimei.

He made the blade himself but was signed by one of his pupils..

He made the blade in an old age, signed himself but due to his age chisel work wasn't as good. (I doubt this)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Okan]

These are my own opinions from my own experiences. There are people here who have much more experience than me so you should also wait to hear their thoughts..

 

 

[Brian]

There are probably more gimei signatures on swords out there, than real ones. The likelyhood of gimei on an unpapered sword is high.
That said, people who study swords a lot get a feel for how flowing and confidently cut a mei is. You can see hesitation or the way the strokes are done. Often gut feel comes into it. That's not to say we aren't often wrong. But this is very much like handwriting. If someone copied your signature, it may read the same, and the characters would be the same. But you could see the person was hesitant and not flowing. You could see where the lines change shape just a little bit. If someone looked at the signature, they may be able to tell it wasn't yours, just by looking at the way it was done. Your signature may change over the years. But it would still be flowing, and you wouldn't show irregular pressure and misshaped lines.
It's like this with mei. Sometimes it's a gut feel. You need to allow for experience in looking at mei. Fwiw, I think this has a good chance to be gimei too. That said, you need to realize that gimei is both common, and doesn't mean the sword it junk. It can be just as good, sometimes better. Just means you allow for the fact that someone else signed it. It's not an insult.

[Matsunoki]

Just re-entered the world to see there’s been a bit of a “ding dong” about authenticity. I’ll add a few words. A sword that is gimei isn’t a fake sword. It can be a wonderful authentic Japanese sword. It just means that the signature is deemed not to be what it purports to be. Authenticating Mei is a simple matter of opinion and observation comparing it to other mei that were also a matter of opinion….albeit “expert opinion”. The experts often disagree even at the highest levels of knowledge.

Your nice looking Wak carries the name Sukekane. The very famous smith from this school was Sukenaga…..your smith purports to be a lesser smith from that famous school. So…..that at least increases the possibility it is authentic as none of the Sukekane were that highly rated compared to Sukenaga.

Also the  blade exhibits the  hamon used by this school but please can we see a good image of both sides where the hamon approaches and enters the nakago? This school had a distinctive yakidashi which “copyists” might not have used. Again it doesn’t make it authentic but it’s another signpost in the right direction!

Best to keep an open mind

Just my opinions……it’s all a matter of opinions.

[vajo]

total gimei.

[Gimmick]

I am not discounting anyone's experience - since I have zero knowledge on the subject -  I'm just surprised to hear that assuming gimei is the norm, and I find it hard to rhyme with Japanese honor. Add to that the fact that I know the provenance of this particular sword - it was carried in WW II - and I've read that families gave their family sword to the person going to war so he would be careful and feel the responsibility to bring it back and that "the Japanese sword is foremost regarded as an object of spiritual protection and art". It makes no sense to me to keep a gimei in the family and give it to your son going to war, unless the family was duped back in the late 1800s, or if they willingly bought a gimei, because maybe no one cared, like wearing fake brand clothing or sunglasses. Both scenarios would have to make me rethink my notions about Japanese honor. Sure, there are unscrupulous folks in all societies, but why would they bother to pick this smith's signature to copy, I'm sure there are more desirable names as Matsunoki pointed out.

 

It is not uncommon for people to stamp lousy "army codes" or arrows on a random khukuri to give it fake military provenance, but they do this because most modern collectors prefer military khukuri over village khukuri. That you guys are saying that this was done frequently in period in Japan, I find very off putting, and I fail to see the motivation, unless, again, they didn't care if they had a pair of fake Gucci sunglasses. If there is one thing I find dishonorable, it is lies, whether spoken or written. If you can't trust a signature for what it is, that just sucks.

 

Having said all that, I put zero stock in remarks like "total gimei.", and personally I also fail to see why a smith would bother doing his own signature, when there's a ton of apprentices around to do the boring work, unless it was a matter of honor to sign it themselves, but apparently a gimei was so common as to not be dishonorable, and if it was so common that means none of the smiths bothered to do anything about it, and it might have also not been illegal or worth stopping. Like how counterfeit clothing is everywhere in Turkey, but is stopped here at the borders. Of couse that doesn't stop cheap fake and high quality hommage Rolex and Breitling and AP from being available here, but there are many factors to discern them, most tellingly the movement if you open it up. And now I learn here that opening up your sword is where the controversy begins!

 

Despite the naysayers, when I read this:

"From Aoit Art: At the end of Edo period, many sword makers were making Nioideki Cyuji midare hamon.
Yokoyama Cyoji midare hamon, his student Sukakane made a lot of this type of Hamon and also educated many student and asked to make this Cyoji midare hamon.
So his stdent like Sukeyoshi, suketoshi Sukenao are making this kind of hamon. It is very easy to distinguish his or his family’s hamon.
This blade is healthy typical Sukekane hamon."

 

It should be pretty easy for an actual Sukekane expert to recognize the hamon on my sword as his, similar to how a <insert painter> expert immediately recognizes the brush strokes and whatever. As for the hamon approaching and entering the nakago, this is the best I can do.

 

 

 

[Bazza]

You're a bit rosy-eyed there Ferry as well as tad holier-than-thou and need to come down a bit to the Land of Reality.  I wouldn't have replied were it not for your statement I'm just surprised to hear that assuming gimei is the norm, and I find it hard to rhyme with Japanese honor.   Jeez, spare me!!  You would do well to read this study of a book Musui the Samurai before responding further.

https://www.supersummary.com/musuis-story/summary/

 

BaZZa

Melbourne, Australia

Collector and student for 60 years.

 

 

[Brian]

Forget the Japanese notion of honour. It simply didn't exist as the movies portray it. No moreso that anyone else. Also, gimei wasn't dishonorable. In fact, often gimei swords were given as gifts with both parties knowing it was gimei, but it was not spoken about and both sides ignored the obvious. Go into the FAQ above the forum and read about "Why Gimei"
Would have been common for families to own gimei swords. Since these were often done at the time of manufacture, hundreds of years ago...it was not considered something of any significance.
Families gave plenty of swords to their members going to war. But also many blades were bought by the govt, including antiques, to be sold to soldiers going to war. They had dept store displays where dealers sold various blades to soldiers, and had them custom mounted for the war.
It only takes one kanji to be really off for someone to state with reasonable confidence a sword is gimei. Smiths were consistent.

[Gimmick]

Fair enough, but if I have to let go of any notions of honor and have to assume the worst in objects and people, why shouldn't I also assume that people on here get sour when a random person who has invested nothing in the study and collecting of nihonto comes up with a possibly very special wakizashi, and they cope with the cognitive dissonance (why does he get a lucky inheritence when I've invested half my life and spent thousands of dollars bla bla bla) with a knee-jerk reaction of GIMEI!!!!!!!! Is that the Land of Reality you want me to come down to? Because wherever I see collectors, be it watches, toy cars, guitars, whatever, the one thing that unites them all is envy.

 

I've recently discovered a rare toy car from a German brand that was made exclusively for or even in Japan. It's from 1978 so no one had any clue it existed. None of the big collectors of this brand will even touch it or show interest, because they are not the one who discovered it and they are not the one who owns it. My interest is sharing a piece of the history, their interest is being the best at collecting.

 

So my gut feeling is saying that some of you are interested in genuinely identifying my sword and learning in the process, and that some of you are interested in feeling better about not being the owner by casting doubt where it may or may not be warranted. Or are all members on this forum above that? Wouldn't that be a bit rosy-eyed?

 

Either way, I asked for opinions in my first post and I appreciate all of them, I was just not prepared for this can of worms and I will now read the Why Gimei thing.

[Brian]

It's a nice $1000 or $1200 wakizashi. To make it worth more, you'd need to spend about $2500 on a polish and new shirasaya, and then it would be worth $2500. Even papered, you would end up with a $3000 wakizashi..maybe.
Trust me, jealousy isn't anyone's motivation. That's not how it works here, where everyone has unpolished wakizashi in their collection.
You have a nice wakizashi. Attractive hamon, but study will show you that wild hamon don't increase value. It's a lovely one to own, but thinking people are talking it down because it's a treasure is going down the wrong path. Just doesn't work that way when there are tens of thousands of similar ones out there.

[Matsunoki]

52 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

As for the hamon approaching and entering the nakago, this is the best I can do.

It is common for this school to use a long yakidashi as the hamon approaches the nakago ie the complex pattern of choji reduces to a long more narrow and straight hamon. Maybe not on all of their output…who knows…..but from the images it appears that this feature is not present on your sword. That isn’t in it’s favour.

Re your feeling that envy etc  may cloud people…..I recently had a bit of luck and shared it on this Forum with images etc.

I received only a multitude of congratulations and “well done” together with advice re how to do some of the restoration needed. I didn’t get one single negative comment. This forum is superb (maybe one or two idiots) and will generally provide unbelievable assistance freely and willingly. Our aspirations and hopes sometimes mean we might not always like the answers, we might not even agree sometimes…….but there is nowhere else that brings this degree of easily accessible expertise and intelligent debate.

Just my opinions.