Interesting Higo Tsuba - Overpriced?

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

https://www.jauce.com/auction/t1079641212

Pretty pricey at over 400,000 yen?  Educate me on why its so special?

 

[Spartancrest]

I think it is a Yamagane tsuba by Hirata Hikozo  with an odawara fukurin and design of Namako (Sea Cucumber)

This one for sale at PRICE: $48,500.00  https://nihonto.com/8-8-19-2/ different sukashi design but same maker or school.

Way way way out of my pay grade! 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hirata Hikozō example, ex display piece from the Niigata Art Museum.

[Tensho]

Tosogu prices never made sense to me. Only thing I can compare them too is paintings. Guess what painting sold closer to $200 million below. 

[Franco D]

 

59 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

Pretty pricey at over 400,000 yen?

 

Cheap, the question is why, what's the catch?

 

https://nihonto.com/000045/ 

 

https://nihonto.com/8-8-19-2/

 

https://nihonto.com/11-05-19/

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

" In Buddhism, desire and ignorance lie at the root of suffering. By desire, Buddhists refer to craving pleasure, material goods, and immortality, all of which are wants that can never be satisfied. As a result, desiring them can only bring suffering." - PBS

[DirkO]

According to the seller it's a direct Hikozo. However, no recent papers. Possibly they tried shinsa and it papered to Hirata or even Hirata den. And that makes all the difference... It's not because something was in a collection or a museum under a certain header, that it will pass shinsa as such.

[GRC]

flea market price for that one...

could have/should have been much higher.

 

It's special because it's Hirata Hikozo... THE GUY.

Ground breaking innovator at a very special time in Japanese history.  

 

My question is why did the museum let this one go?

[GRC]

Some thoughts on shinsa and high end prices for tsuba:

 

Shinsa gets so many papers wrong so often, that it really shouldn't matter what they say in many cases.

The obvious pieces shouldn't need papers anyway... and even then shinsa still makes mistakes (eg. an obvious, signed Yamakichibei tsuba was given a Saotome attribution... it's been posted on this message board in the past).

 

But then again, people will always want/need "confirmation" from some sort of perceived authority before dropping the big bucks on something that is "museum class".

 

Sadly, all this just reaffirms the idea that all too often, the high end prices are less about the piece itself and more about trophy hunting and the bragging rights that go along with it. But that seems to require the "papers" to wave around as justification. So when papers are present for high end pieces, the price gets driven up. 

 

I have read in several recent-ish posts that It seems that NBTHK shinsa is trending toward a much more cautious approach in assigning a lot more "den" attributions, rather than to give an attribution to a master smith.

 

just some thoughts and observations...

I know there's lots of opinions on this topic 

   

[DirkO]

For a Japanese collector the more typical an item is, the higher it's ranked and the more desirable it is.

Hence the cautious papering. Obviously exceptions will be made for special pieces.

 

So yes, very typical and easy to recognize pieces will get better attributions. The odd human error will occur in every line of business, I think there's an article somewhere where they calculate the number of pieces in a shinsa session, it's daunting. 

 

If you feel confident enough to buy an unpapered piece, by all means do. It will save you money. However, when it comes to selling, you'll be hard pressed to make that same convincing case to a potential buyer who might not have your level of knowledge or confidence in the piece.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

so we agree its a legit piece and sold cheap?  never seems to happen when im looking (and know what im looking for  )

[Steve Waszak]

The question, really, is whether this particular tsuba is Shodai Hikozo or Nidai Hikozo.  I have my doubts that this is Shodai work, as the plate comes across as a bit too "tame" or lacking in the vitality that usually infuses Shodai workmanship.  The plate here is relatively quiet.  This doesn't mean it can't be from the hand of the Shodai, but in the end I suspect it is a Nidai tsuba.  I suppose the "low" hammer price may be explained by its being seen as either a lower-end Shodai work or in fact that of the Nidai.  

 

Just as an aside, my personal view of Shodai Hirata Hikozo tsuba is that they are -- at their best -- the finest soft-metal sword guards ever made.  That is a topic for a different thread, though...

 

[rkg]

7 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

so we agree its a legit piece and sold cheap?  never seems to happen when im looking (and know what im looking for  )

It depends on what you mean by legit.  Its probably Higo/hirata work, but the big guy?  Maybe, maybe not, which is why the piece is on YJ.  It could be by the nidai, could be good later er, utushi, etc. 

I would guess the seller (0r the P.O.) submitted it to the NBTHK and it bounced or was given papers to somebody else (different generation or the group) or got the dreaded "den hikozo", as even Hozon papers would allow the piece (if legit/attributed to Hikozo with no 'den') to sell for several times the hammer price here. 

 

Every once in a while a rube actually does put something up  w/o taking steps to maximize value (which is why I guess we all watch YJ), but that is not the case with this seller.  They regularly run out some fairly high-grade items (I would posit if he thought it had a snowball's chance in hell of passing as a shoudai piece he would have bought it and had it papered himself even if he couldn't convince the client to do so).

 

I would posit that is why the bidding stopped where it did - that's an OK price for a "den hikozo" piece, but you're taking the risk that its a nidai or a real good utushi, or...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

great analysis Richard!  Agree that roosteryears is a knowledgable seller

[rkg]

On a related note, here's one with NB papers to "den hikozo"-  I personally am not sure how they got there as it isn't really up to either the shoudai or nidai's work, but...

https://www.sendico.com/ayahoo/item/l1079653149

And here's an image of the piece snarfed from the auction for posterity - I don't own it/the copyright to it and it is being presented for educational purposes only

 

 

rkg

[Bazza]

I thought it would be interesting to slip Ford Hallam's Hikozo utsushi here.  Having seem a (maybe) genuine one in Sydney some 50+ years ago I had always liked the work and when Ford's tsuba was offered  for sale I jumped on it. I never regretted the decision and I love it even more these some years later.

Bestests,

BaZZa.

 

[Curran]

The one on Yahoo!Japan is not a Hikozo.

Seppa dai is wrong.

I didn't check the mimi, but it looks wrong too.

 

     The Den Hikozo is more interesting. I understand the reason for 'Den' on it.

I like it, but don't love it. I won't be bidding.

 

 

[GRC]

Hikozo works are an area that I'm just starting to sink my teeth into, and just admired them from afar.

They always seemed equivalent to the other-worldly "unobtanium" 

 

So I humbly defer to Richard, Curran and Steve's analysis on this one , which seems to come to a consensus of:

-at best Nidai 

-but could also be a later "den"

-and could even be an "utsushi" made by someone not directly connected to the Higo school smiths

 

I have to say though, if it is indeed an utsushi, it sure had me fooled!

Which just goes to show why having only "a little knowledge" in a specific area is dangerous when it comes to high end works.

I certainly wouldn't venture into this particular area (with money in hand) until I know a lot more.

 

And I suppose that again affirms why high end pieces benefit so much from having some sort of "official validation" from shinsa.. regardless of how flawed it can be at times. 

A positive affirmation from papers will go a long way to convince someone (who isn't certain) to pay a higher value.

 

It was a fun auction to watch, and learn from 

[Bazza]

UNOBTAINIUM - new word of the day.  Love it.

 

BaZZa.

[GRC]

Can’t take credit for that one Bazza... that goes to the writers of Avatar  

It’s a great word 👍

[Curran]

These are the two that I keep. -Old photo.

 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

NICE @Curran

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

19 hours ago, Curran said:

The one on Yahoo!Japan is not a Hikozo.

Seppa dai is wrong.

I didn't check the mimi, but it looks wrong too.

 

     The Den Hikozo is more interesting. I understand the reason for 'Den' on it.

I like it, but don't love it. I won't be bidding.

 

 

relisted at 820,000 BIN

[Spartancrest]

21 hours ago, GRC said:

Can’t take credit for that one Bazza... that goes to the writers of Avatar  

It’s a great word 👍

Glen the writers of Avatar took everything from "Dances with Wolves"  - it became in effect "Dances with Aliens" - - Just the same as the makers of "The Last Samurai" - it should have been called "Dances with Swords"  - Hollywood at its best - rehashing the past and trying to slip it past as something new.  

"Unobtanium"- not a great investment name for a mining concern when you think about it. 

"Lend us some money to find the one thing in the Universe you can't actually obtain" ..  Where do I send the cheque? 

 

I know! Way way 

[reinhard]

The tsuba in question was offered in 2004 at DaiTokenIchi by a Japanese dealer as "Hikozo"-tsuba without papers.

Many knowledgeable people must have seen it in the meantime.

Being still without papers and offered for a price far less than can be expected for a genuine (shodai) Hikozo leaves me with only one conclusion:

There's something wrong with it.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

[GRC]

Reinhard, that is some very useful information and definitely adds a lot to our understanding of this particular tsuba 

Thanks for sharing that. 

 

2004... some solid memory skills!  

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Another Hikozo up for auction

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1083743196

[Tim Evans]

Same pattern tsuba is on page 459 of Higo Kinko Taikan, signed Tani of Hishu. This one does not show much age so either it is way overcleaned and repatinated or else a modern copy. 

[Curran]

Better attempt at Hikozo. The seppa dai is closer, but the feeling is otherwise off.

Geometry is a bit out of whack.

 

There was a papered den Hikozo up recently. Hikozo liked to experiment, especially with silver on his kinko works.

It was one of the ugliest 'failed experiment' ones I had seen, -complete with some forging issues- and it was interesting because it went for a relatively cheap price.

Genuine, but it defined the lowest end of what prices Hikozo gets. I'd say there is a $40,000 range from his Juyo to his barely papered examples.

 

   -Respect to Hikozo for experimenting with various metals and mixes like he did. A list member owns a suaka+silver Hikozo that was clearly an experiment and has a lot of tea house aesthetic appeal. I like it very much.

The Hikozo with silver experimentation are often the most interesting, won't make Juyo, and therefore affordable.

[Soshin]

3 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

Another Hikozo up for auction

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1083743196

 

Need to explain my downvote. I was only expressing my dislike of the linked example. I have respect for Hirata Hikozo and this body of work. I liked many of the tsuba that started off this tread but above example I not a fan off. The openwork design looks more than a bit plain and awkward to me. I would also expect a deeper patina and more use of black lacquer on a plate of refined copper.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Duly noted and no offense taken @Soshin!!