Traditionally made Gendai armors ?

[FrenchBreadPrime]

Are there any Gendai Armor makers that are 100% traditional ?

I'm interested in Gendai models and how they compare to Antiques, but I feel like no modern maker manages to actually match antiques. Marutake appears to be display-purpose only (apparently, their metal is thin) and tend to use cotton for Odoshi, and Iron Mountain armory, while proposing thicker metal and the ability to use silk if asked, is assembled outside of Japan and uses some inaccurate stuff like riveted fukurin, for example.

Both use spray paint instead of Urushi, I've heard IMA wanted to try their hand at Urushi but I haven't heard anything more.

There's also Kozando but they're also made by Marutake, although those are apparently wearable but I don't know to what extent.

 

Does anybody knows of another Gendai maker that would be of better accuracy and quality ? And if not, who are the best ones for historical accuracy and functionality ? It feels like nothing is matching even Showa antiques.

[DTM72]

I have an Iron Mountain Armory and I am completly happy with it. I have displayed it, packed it away, and transported it to a show, set it up, taken it down...multiple times. I have worn it about 4-5 times with no issues. I'm not sure you would want to do everything I have done to a suit coved by Urushi. Additionally, the urushi process is very time consuming and materials are expensive, then making the final product more expensive.

I think it all comes down to what you want to do with the suit. Display only, display and wear, wear while training?

 

Wishing you the best of luck.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

2 hours ago, DTM72 said:

I have an Iron Mountain Armory and I am completly happy with it. I have displayed it, packed it away, and transported it to a show, set it up, taken it down...multiple times. I have worn it about 4-5 times with no issues. I'm not sure you would want to do everything I have done to a suit coved by Urushi. Additionally, the urushi process is very time consuming and materials are expensive, then making the final product more expensive.

I think it all comes down to what you want to do with the suit. Display only, display and wear, wear while training?

 

Wishing you the best of luck.

Hey ! Thanks for answering !

I also have an IMA set and I've been happy with it too, they're great at making their pieces fit to a T and their armor are quite strong. I've been eyeing a lot of their stuff too, especially their Haramaki which appears to look very nice. Another upside is that their katchu-shi are apparently Japanese and have been trained in Japan. 

I've seen your armor while lurking on the site too and yours looks really good !

What I'd be interested in would be a modern but fully traditionally made set, but I have a hard time explaining why, though it's kind of for the same reason that I'd prefer having a fully functional Teppo copy than a copy that's not functional. I've been holding IMA in high hopes given their new option of making their armors battle-ready but on the other hand they've been cutting corners on some details (which I totally understand)

 

But to be fair, I'd like to get a set from Marutake too in order to compare everything firsthand, I'm just a little sad that there aren't many people going the extra mile and proposing 100% traditional stuff, I can't fathom the price it'd cost but it'd be a neat thing. Would the best bet be to get an antique one and have it fully restored ?

[Shogun8]

15 hours ago, FrenchBreadPrime said:

Would the best bet be to get an antique one and have it fully restored ?

Bingo!

[YOJIMBO]

1 hour ago, Shogun8 said:

Bingo!

disagreement

[FrenchBreadPrime]

9 hours ago, Shogun8 said:

Bingo!

That's so strange though. Strangest thing is that you can get an Antique set and have it restored for less than some innacurate Gendai sets. Or sometimes, even really well preserved (like pristine condition) sets go on auctions for less than the average price of a Marutake set. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that fact.

 

[ROKUJURO]

TN (please give us your first name so we can address you politely),

many years ago I read about traditional crafts in Japan, and there was a KACHUSHI mentioned (I don't remember the name) who worked completely traditional in his shop. Production time was about 18 month and price for a complete armour set was 500K (starting price, depending on style, material and decoration). He was a NINGEN KOKUHO craftsman. 

Perhaps the Ministry of Cultural Affairs in Japan could help you finding him.

In Japan there is a small market for new armour in the Living History scene. You could ask Piers (BUGYOTSUJI here on the NMB) about the front-loading people (TEPPO/TANEGASHIMA), but in Japan also the YABUSAME (traditional archery from horseback) guys often don't use old armour but have it newly made to their specifications.

Needless to say that these are not exactly poor people..... 

[YOJIMBO]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Perhaps the Ministry of Cultural Affairs in Japan could help you finding him.

 

if it's the one I mean, you'll find it in the cemetery, unfortunately.

[ROKUJURO]

Simon,

probably! As I wrote, it is many years ago that I read about him.

[Baka Gaijin]

That sounds like Miura Hiromichi

 

https://www.ana-cooljapan.com/contents/craftsmanship/interviews/kacchu/

[FrenchBreadPrime]

3 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

TN (please give us your first name so we can address you politely),

many years ago I read about traditional crafts in Japan, and there was a KACHUSHI mentioned (I don't remember the name) who worked completely traditional in his shop. Production time was about 18 month and price for a complete armour set was 500K (starting price, depending on style, material and decoration). He was a NINGEN KOKUHO craftsman. 

Perhaps the Ministry of Cultural Affairs in Japan could help you finding him.

In Japan there is a small market for new armour in the Living History scene. You could ask Piers (BUGYOTSUJI here on the NMB) about the front-loading people (TEPPO/TANEGASHIMA), but in Japan also the YABUSAME (traditional archery from horseback) guys often don't use old armour but have it newly made to their specifications.

Needless to say that these are not exactly poor people..... 

Sorry, I added my first name (I'm often uneasy about since it's an uncommon one so I get found out easily)

I hope, as others said, it's not Miura Hiromichi since he died, but then again it seems that even in Japan, Katchushi are really scarce. As for the 500k, I suppose it's in USD rather than in yen, but at least I know how much I'll need to set aside if I win it big at some point.

 

Contacting the Ministry sounds like an interesting path to follow. I've seen Yabusame riders wearing O-Yoroi, and some Tosei Gusoku outside of the usual outfit, do we know who made them ?

Thank you for your answer !

[ROKUJURO]

Yes, I think it was MIURA SENSEI, and the price was indeed in USD.

Malcolm, thank you very much for the video link - very inspiring!

Tidiane, then you may also know David Thatcher (  https://yoroi.uk/  ). I heard he has a very good reputation as KACHUSHI and is a member here..

[Bugyotsuji]

I am unwilling to name names here as the international rivalry between factions is intense. 

 

Miura Hiromichi sadly died in July last year, at 84. RIP

 

Suffice it to say that a modern armorer in Japan has two functions, one of which is to restore old armor, and the other is to create 'replica' armor with traditional materials and techniques. At present there is one who has been recognized by the National Council for Cultural Affairs.

 

Many museums or temples/shrines may want a replica to a) lend out and b) show how their armor would have looked originally. Or they may want refurbishing of an old artefact. It depends what your requirement is.

 

If you are a collector of old armour then the answer is easy, a) buy old and enjoy or b) buy old and restore.

 

If you want a modern set built traditionally as it would have been, that is also a valid way forward. Presumably you can buy some of the ones that have already been made, or order parts or sets.

 

Good luck in your quest!

[FrenchBreadPrime]

12 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Yes, I think it was MIURA SENSEI, and the price was indeed in USD.

Malcolm, thank you very much for the video link - very inspiring!

Tidiane, then you may also know David Thatcher (  https://yoroi.uk/  ). I heard he has a very good reputation as KACHUSHI and is a member here..

Coincidentally, I happened to contact David Thatcher that very morning, I've always been impressed by his work and have been planning on visiting his museum as I'll have to stay in the UK for a few weeks for my studies, there are questions that I'd like to ask him in person, including the concept of accurate Gendai armors. I wonder if he's ever been commissionned to craft one from scratch.

 

6 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

I am unwilling to name names here as the international rivalry between factions is intense. 

 

Miura Hiromichi sadly died in July last year, at 84. RIP

 

Suffice it to say that a modern armorer in Japan has two functions, one of which is to restore old armor, and the other is to create 'replica' armor with traditional materials and techniques. At present there is one who has been recognized by the National Council for Cultural Affairs.

 

Many museums or temples/shrines may want a replica to a) lend out and b) show how their armor would have looked originally. Or they may want refurbishing of an old artefact. It depends what your requirement is.

 

If you are a collector of old armour then the answer is easy, a) buy old and enjoy or b) buy old and restore.

 

If you want a modern set built traditionally as it would have been, that is also a valid way forward. Presumably you can buy some of the ones that have already been made, or order parts or sets.

 

Good luck in your quest!

Buying old and restoring seems like the best compromise overall, though if I ever become obscenely rich, I'll try having a full set made. I hadn't thought about buying an already made modern set, though, as that sounds like a good compromise too, though I can't imagine it to be the same price as antiques if the cost of making is so high.

I mainly hope that more armorers will learn those skills in the future, as it feels like we're at a point where it could be lost to History since traditional katchushi are so few nowadays.

Thank you for your answer !

[Gakusee]

The quoted sum of $500k does not sound accurate, unless we are discussing the national treasure replica of a Heian armour that took traditional kachushi 3-4 years to build. 
For $50k-100k you can buy Juyo Bunka Shiryo authentic antique armour, so you can imagine how many you can buy with $500k. 
Of course, in some of the recent Sotheby’s auctions, prices went stratospheric for some of the Daimyo armours but even then the top armours went for $200-300k. Prices have subsequently normalised I hope/ think. 

[FrenchBreadPrime]

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

The quoted sum of $500k does not sound accurate, unless we are discussing the national treasure replica of a Heian armour that took traditional kachushi 3-4 years to build. 
For $50k-100k you can buy Juyo Bunka Shiryo authentic antique armour, so you can imagine how many you can buy with $500k. 
Of course, in some of the recent Sotheby’s auctions, prices went stratospheric for some of the Daimyo armours but even then the top armours went for $200-300k. Prices have subsequently normalised I hope/ think. 

Wasn't that O-Yoroi even more expensive ?

50-100k USD sounds more in line with traditionally made European full plate armors (be it Gothic or Italian), price-wise. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised to see something go for 500k either depending on what is being done due to the toxicity of Urushi and the techniques needed for reinforcing the armor with steel and iron. I feel like a traditionally made and tested Tameshi Gusoku would get expensive too. 

I don't follow much of the huge auctions, what explains the huge rise in price for these sets, was it the Historical value or were there still overvalued ? 

[Arthur G]

There are a few of us around, but we're rare birds; there are only four foreign kacchushi, and I'm only a 2 year deshi 

This is one I've been working on for a long time now. Have had a lot of problems trying to figure out the shikoro.

People wildly underestimate the amount of research involved I think; I spend more time researching than with a hammer in hand.

 

[FrenchBreadPrime]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:18 AM, Arthur G said:

There are a few of us around, but we're rare birds; there are only four foreign kacchushi, and I'm only a 2 year deshi 

This is one I've been working on for a long time now. Have had a lot of problems trying to figure out the shikoro.

People wildly underestimate the amount of research involved I think; I spend more time researching than with a hammer in hand.

 

I didn't know there were katchushi still operating other than Kouji Kadoya, let alone foreign ones, and even apprentices ! That's incredible news! 

This hachi looks great, too; what made you start working on it ?

[Arthur G]

Originally my business was being built around matchlocks. Then I decided to focus specifically on the Kishuu style since their gunners had by far the most interesting history.

I realized long term I'd like to see more people reenacting outside of Japan. However, traditional armor is not really all that available, let alone Saika style armor. Might as well make some helmets to go with the matchlocks right? How hard can it be?

Turns out it's very, very hard 

I made a prototype and put out a call to people following my page, saying I'd take up a commission. I figured it'd be easy since I already had a prototype made, but I made so many refinements to it that it ended up being far more work. Still trying to finish it out, but thankfully my customer has been very patient with me through the whole process.

I dabble in a few other things here and there, but reviving Kishuu gunsmithing and Saika style armoring are my main focus.

There are still people out there trying to keep the traditions alive; what makes things difficult, in my humble opinion, is how fragmented the community is. There are generations long feuds and sore feelings between different factions. There are scammers and frauds who have caused a great deal of damage...

One of the biggest things is the original industry/economy/logistics is long gone; so in order to do this stuff nowadays, you have to take on a lot more skillsets as one person, doing the work of many specialists. There are lots of barriers to entry; it's not impossible, but you have to want it badly enough is my opinion on it. You have to love it, and in a way remove yourself from it. You have to be as objective as possible with analysis of originals, and focus on making it as close as possible. Rather than a mentality of "how do I trick people into thinking this looks like the real thing", just make the real thing.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

That's incredible, especially for Saika style, their Kabuto feel like they'd belong to paintings of deities thanks to the unique rivets and fittings shapes. I'm eager to see how yours will turn out, there's so much potential.

Are you learning as an uchideshi ?

 

The community is in a strange state right now, I feel like it's also due to recent losses of people, or others retiring. Until recently, I thought only Zenon Vandamme still practiced outside of Japan (and to be fair, I'm not even sure he still does), it would be nice to see more news about Katchu-shi. In a way I'm a little envious of how Nihonto are treated and followed, it would be wonderful if armors had the same treatment. 

Most schools seem to have their trade secrets and (understandably so) wish to keep them, is this one of the cause for these feuds ?