help with koto tanto sukemitsu

[Eddie]

dear gentlemen

 

I was a member years ago when Rich T still ran the board, just came back as ive had a long absence from collecting and found the new board and noticed its changed hands. I could not find my old log in details so stared anew again.

 

Just picked up this old tanto, its signed sukemitsu and looks to be from early koto period ( judging by the shape, patina on nagako is dark chocolate color , and mekugi ana are well rounded) but going through some records found about 5 smiths that signed sukemitsu from 1288 to 1500, as i dont have any other mei to compair my mei too iam finding it hard to narrow down which one it might be. Or if its gimei.

 

Sorry the tanto is way out of polish has surface rust all over it so i cant help with any features, but nagasa is 10.6", sori 0.1", moto haba 1.0", moto gasan 0.2"

 

any help would be appreciated.

 

regards Edward

[Stephen]

Help! someone stop the rust on the blade, at least get some oil on it.

 

im sure the mei experts will jump in but i cant see the chippy style being a real thing, did he Guys?

[Grey Doffin]

I don't think I've ever seen an early Koto tanto in shinogi-zukuri. They were pretty much all hira-zukuri, weren't they?

Grey

[Eddie]

I don't think I've ever seen an early Koto tanto in shinogi-zukuri. They were pretty much all hira-zukuri, weren't they?

Grey

 

the blade IS hira-zukuri, with two bohi on either side , one side it goes to the kissaki the other side it goes half way up the blade.

 

regards Edward

[Grey Doffin]

Sorry about that; I should have looked closer.

Grey

[Eddie]

Sorry about that; I should have looked closer.

Grey

 

thats Ok grey no need to be sorry, the hi probably threw you off.

 

ive had a look all over the web and i cant find no examples of a sukemitsu mei from the late kamakura to the nanbokucho period. i found some examples of later bizen sukemitsu but the mei writing style is different. The nagako looks bizen shape so i have kept my search in this area.

 

I did find a reference search and found this from, Nihon Koto Shi By Dr honma Junji, he stated the use of chippy chiseled style of mei:

"Generally speaking, the chiselling style (mei) of koto smiths resembles that of sculptors of Buddhist statues and they are normally done in the semi cursive or running style. They were not very skilled but their mei looks elegant and tasteful. Some Bizen smiths started employing the square style in signing and the styles of mei by smiths who belong to the same lineage have a close resemblance. It is highly possible that professional chisellers, who substituted for the smiths in signing, existed in Bizen Province."

 

but without a reference mei iam stumped.

 

The tanto look tired the surface rust is not deep and i cant see any flaws or pitting, so iam thinking it might have one more polish left in it. Ive stablised the surface rust, but just now researching the period of this tanto and weather it might be sho shin or gimei will give me direction as to the polishing direction i will take with it.

 

let me know your opinion guys.

 

regards Edward

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

ive had a look all over the web and i cant find no examples of a sukemitsu mei from the late kamakura to the nanbokucho period

 

 

Sugata does not lead to these periods and the style of engraving the mei (dotted) seems very strange.

[Grey Doffin]

Edward,

There are 4 Sukemitsu listed in my index (linked by NMB), 3 of them Koto. Maybe one of the included references will help you find your smith.

Grey

[reinhard]

I did find a reference search and found this:

"Generally speaking, the chiselling style (mei) of koto smiths resembles that of sculptors of Buddhist statues and they are normally done in the semi cursive or running style. They were not very skilled but their mei looks elegant and tasteful."

 

I can see neither elegance nor taste in this particular example.

 

reinhard

[Eddie]

Edward,

There are 4 Sukemitsu listed in my index (linked by NMB), 3 of them Koto. Maybe one of the included references will help you find your smith.

Grey

 

 

Thank you Grey, thats one of the first sources i looked at, but unfortunately i do not have access to any of the reference volumes listed to compare the mei.

 

The sukemitsu mei i have managed to find all do not match so unfortunately i can begin to assume that its quite possibly gimei.

 

"I can see neither elegance nor taste in this particular example.

 

reinhard"

 

neither can i reinhard but its one of the only references to mei writing in the period i could find, thats why i posted it.

 

not to worry as i do not collect signatures, so weather its gimei or shoshin is not the concern, my concern was weather to send it to Japan for polishing or elswhere, it will be a nice koto piece to display once polished.

 

thank you gentlemen for your comments and help.

kindest regards

Edward

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

my concern was weather to send it to Japan for polishing or elswhere, it will be a nice koto piece to display once polished.

 

It is your money, if you want to waste it....this blade is not well forged and only a miracle will be make it "nice".

 

 

Sorry for my frankness

[pcfarrar]

It is your money, if you want to waste it....this blade is not well forged and only a miracle will be make it "nice".

 

Out of interest what makes you think its not well forged?

 

I agree any money spent on this would be a waste. It looks very tired and the shape has been destroyed.

[Eddie]

Hi,

 

my concern was weather to send it to Japan for polishing or elswhere, it will be a nice koto piece to display once polished.

 

It is your money, if you want to waste it....this blade is not well forged and only a miracle will be make it "nice".

 

Sorry for my frankness

Hmmmm. Please do enlighten me as to how you came to that educated opinion. Have you xray vision that enables you to see through surface rust to look at activities in the blade.

If so you must feel special to be able to do that yes no?

 

I just wanted to see if it was worth preserving or if I should turn it into a fishing knife.

 

Pardon my humor.

 

This forum is for education mate. Not for tickling your ego,

 

Read the original post I asked about the smith not wether it was forged well or if I can make it nice.

 

Edward

[Guido]

Edward, although I may not agree with how some replies are phrased, you at least got some honest, unbiased opinions - no need to get overly defensive. You can't discuss the Mei isolated from the workmanship, and I think the general consensus (including MHO) is that this blade isn't worth (at least speaking from a financial point of view) the extra expense of a polish. It's obiously Gimei and in a pretty sorry state of conservation. Yes, this forum is about education, as painful as it sometimes may feel at the receiving end ...

[Eddie]

Edward, although I may not agree with how some replies are phrased, you at least got some honest, unbiased opinions - no need to get overly defensive. You can't discuss the Mei isolated from the workmanship, and I think the general consensus (including MHO) is that this blade isn't worth (at least speaking from a financial point of view) the extra expense of a polish. It's obiously Gimei and in a pretty sorry state of conservation. Yes, this forum is about education, as painful as it sometimes may feel at the receiving end ...

 

THank you Guido I do indeed understand, but sometimes you just have to retort to comments like that.

 

Thanks to all you took the time to reply much appreciated.

 

Fishing knife it is then

 

Regards Edward

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Below the three koto Sukemitsu 助光:

 

Yamato sukemitsu (kamakura era, Shôan 1299)

 

 

Bizen Yoshioka Sukemitsu (late Kamakura era, Karyaku 1326)

 

 

Goshu Ishido Sukemitsu (seems there is not extant works)

 

[reinhard]

Allright then

 

quoting "eddie" in chronological order:

 

"picked up this old tanto"

"looks to be from from early koto period"

"wether it's gimei or shoshin is not the concern"

"it will be a nice koto piece to display"

"Please enlighten me as to how you came to that educated opinion"

 

From ignorance to sarcasm in no time. Unwilling to learn, but exposing himself and his intentions in an exhibitionist's way. Some fun's ahead.

 

reinhard

[Brian]

Does that much cynicism hurt at all Reinhard?

Seriously though Eddie, a thick skin will get you far here. Guys have seen it all and been through stuff that makes them sceptical, and sometimes it comes out very strong. However if you stick it out, there is a lot to learn here and fun to be had (yes, strange as it may seem)

Some serious students of Nihonto here, and every other type you can imagine. Sometimes cryptic answers (what's up with that?) hide good info.

 

Brian

[loiner1965]

Does that much cynicism hurt at all Reinhard?

Seriously though Eddie, a thick skin will get you far here. Guys have seen it all and been through stuff that makes them sceptical, and sometimes it comes out very strong. However if you stick it out, there is a lot to learn here and fun to be had (yes, strange as it may seem)

Some serious students of Nihonto here, and every other type you can imagine. Sometimes cryptic answers (what's up with that?) hide good info.

 

Brian

i am thicked skinned and still here

[Eddie]

ok i'll put my thick skin on :D

 

thanks jacques for posting the oshiga of those mei

 

regards Edward

[Wari-kogai]

Hello User,

 

I "accidentally" stumbled over this forum (once again) while I was searching

for infos about a certain sukemitsu-tanto someone sells (or sold by now)

on ebay and that had a less nice signature/mei on its tang/nakagao.

 

Not only that I found this kind of signature only here in this thread,

it seems that the offered tanto - sold as koto - is exactly the

same as the one posted in this thread`s 1. question, too.

 

I saw this tanto on ebay and just wondered, why the price for this blade still

was that low though it was offered as koto and at least not totally rusted.

 

The auction on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280383634527&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

1st picture below: tang from ebay, 2nd picture below: tang from this discussion

(if you don`t see the similarities on your system, just trust my pc-monitor :D )

 

I would just like to know, if meanwhile the signature has been proven to be real

(auction: "signed suke mitsu") and if so why it has been sold now, that it

does look better than at the time of the beginning of this topic ?

[Brian]

Appears to be the same blade, yes. Looks to have been sold by the person who owned and posted it here originally. Also a very honest description when he states that it is old and tired, and won't take another polish. That would account for the low price I guess.

 

Brian