Is this a real Hamon?

[Malvakin]

Picked up this sword fairly cheaply, no papers but the seller claimed it’s a gendaito. There is a visible hada, but I’m not entirely convinced that the Hamon is genuine. What do you guys think?

The price was low enough that even if it’s not real it’ll work as a new cutter.

[dkirkpatrick]

I see the hada you’re referencing but it all looks like pure hadori from this angle.  Pointing at a lightbulb and sighting down the edge you should be able to discern whether there is an actual hamon.

[Matsunoki]

Please show the nakago as well.

[Utopianarian]

Just a wild guess. Ebay Seller Komonjo out of Berkeley California. That notorious purple rug is a dead ringer. I would venture to guess the hamon is real and a Gendaito blade. 

[NewB]

Yes, komonjo is the seller, No, thats not a real hamon!

 

on a side note - Whomever picked up that Tadayoshi yesterday - congrats. 

 

This blade is either Chinese or the like. There's no hada that I can see. Also I don't see the usual polisher 'signature' near the nakago also!

 

Just my 2 cents

 

J.

[John C]

  On 1/14/2023 at 4:13 AM, Malvakin said:

Picked up this sword fairly cheaply

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Alexander:

If this is a Komonjo blade, it may or may not be genuinely Japanese. I would suggest looking elsewhere to ensure authenticity.  

John C.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I have yet to buy a blade from Mike that isn't genuine! The three I sent to shinsa all passed. Making sweeping negative statements about a seller isn't a wise thing.

 

I know Mike personally, & I know how he goes about finding his blades in Japan. Totally legit & aboveboard. Flame if you want, but I'll stand by a friend. 

[rematron]

Thanks, Ken. Haven’t bought from him but everything I’ve seen looks legitimate and it’s good to hear your experience and perspective. 

[NewB]

  On 1/15/2023 at 1:05 AM, Ken-Hawaii said:

I have yet to buy a blade from Mike that isn't genuine! The three I sent to shinsa all passed. Making sweeping negative statements about a seller isn't a wise thing.

 

I know Mike personally, & I know how he goes about finding his blades in Japan. Totally legit & aboveboard. Flame if you want, but I'll stand by a friend. 

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Mike is great with returns if you aren't happy, that I stand by as a seller.

 

Some blades are disclosed - 'buy the steel, not the signature' But those are NOT Japanese traditionally made blades. I'm not here to discount someone's reputation but

 

The green burns around the dry is what someone has said way before me.

 

P.S. I make a $10000 bet this blade never makes it to any legitimate shinsa!

 

J.

[NewB]

  On 1/15/2023 at 1:05 AM, Ken-Hawaii said:

I have yet to buy a blade from Mike that isn't genuine! The three I sent to shinsa all passed. Making sweeping negative statements about a seller isn't a wise thing.

 

I know Mike personally, & I know how he goes about finding his blades in Japan. Totally legit & aboveboard. Flame if you want, but I'll stand by a friend. 

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With all due respect :

 

 

 

That's because you know what you're buying Ken!

 

As you see in my initial post - I congratulated the buyer of the Tadayoshi katana !

 

 

J.

[Scott JM]

Maybe I'm seeing things but I see grain and hamon there.  Nakago shape, color, and how the width of this compares to the rest of the blade would be nice to see though.

---Scott.

[NewB]

Again This Is hada and hamon

One streak of masame isn't imho

J.

[Utopianarian]

Here is the blade currently still on auction with 2 days left:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165885310033?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=i-cU9RKGRia&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=NqaZZmtNSOK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[PNSSHOGUN]

Chinese blade with thick Hadori, not Gendaito.

[Malvakin]

Thanks for the information everyone! I figured it would be Chinese based on the price, it was very cheap😂 there is definitely a grain pattern, but it’s not easy to see. The Hamon is giving me trouble identifying it, it has qualities that make me think its real (like being similar to the papered wakizashi I have when aimed at a light) and qualities that make me think it’s a fake hamon (looks slightly discolored, almost like a dulled rainbow effect from oil)
Even if it’s a Chinese copy, the fittings are above and beyond standard copies! 
 

Nakago pic attached.

[John C]

  On 1/15/2023 at 6:26 AM, Malvakin said:

it has qualities that make me think its real

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Alexander:

Do you mean real as in water quenched as opposed to oil or real as in quenched and not acid etched or ground in?

John C.

[Malvakin]

  On 1/15/2023 at 6:53 AM, John C said:

Alexander:

Do you mean real as in water quenched as opposed to oil or real as in quenched and not acid etched or ground in?

John C.

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I don’t really know the difference. I have reproduction blades with hamon that look like just a white/silver line. My papered nihonto have a “cloudy” hamon. This sword has a similar cloudy hamon to the papered ones. The difference is that it isn’t just white, it has a very subtle discoloration.

[John C]

Here is a site that has some examples of acid polishing and fake hamon. 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/acid polishing.html#fake hamon

 

But quickly, ground hamon have fine grind lines and a clear demarcation line; acid etching can leave a "cloudy" appearance, though without nie, nioi, or yo or ashi.

John C. 

[Utopianarian]

  On 1/15/2023 at 1:05 AM, Ken-Hawaii said:

I have yet to buy a blade from Mike that isn't genuine! The three I sent to shinsa all passed. Making sweeping negative statements about a seller isn't a wise thing.

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I would generally agree from a sellers standpoint. He’s been a longtime seller on eBay and I personally haven’t bought from him but can say the blades I have seen look Genuine and not seen any Chinese knock offs being passed thru this seller. I’ve seen mumei blades but Japanese made in origin. I don’t know if this blade would pass shinsa but would venture to say it likely is a genuine Japanese made Gendaito as he states it in the description. I wouldn’t think he would stake his reputation by misleading the buyer. He knows what he is selling. Once again only my assumption and could be wrong.

[Matsunoki]

  On 1/15/2023 at 5:33 AM, Utopianarian said:

Here is the blade currently still on auction with 2 days left:

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Totally different blade.(I made the same mistake🙂)

[Brian]

There is enough info posted about this seller to make up your mind. Note that modern made Japanese swords CAN NOT be mumei and not have a date.
And there have been many.

[Xander Chia]

I don’t know anything about Komonjo apart from what you can already find in this forum. But what I can say is that the Chinese are capable of creating blades that seem fairly close to the real thing if they wanted to. At least in my opinion. 

 

Here’s a Chinese blade that looks quite similar to the one op posted.

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

I never had a komonjo blade in hands but from pictures I think the modern ones as real as the blades from samuraiswordsdirect or other eBay sellers of this kind. 
 

Ken you tell the same story for some years without proof so I stay with my opinion. 
 

Without seeing some good jinie im in camp China. 
 

And ofc ken even if he sells real Japanese swords the fact what kind of Gimei he sells does make him nobody honorable.  
 

All this living national treasure and mukansa smith names on this…

[Malvakin]

I mean it’s a nice enough sword that I’m not mad if it is a Chinese copy😅 Normally nihonto are made of tamahagane right? Is there a place that can test what kind of steel the sword is made oc? I have no problem sawing off part of the nakago to send for testing if that’s an option.

[rematron]

 Nope, that’s not how to test a sword. Try to find a sword club in your area and show it to them. Cutting a chunk off of your possible Nihonto is the opposite of preservation which is what you should be striving for. If you find out for sure that it’s not Nihonto, then you can do whatever you want with it. 

[Malvakin]

  On 1/15/2023 at 3:11 PM, rematron said:

 Nope, that’s not how to test a sword. Try to find a sword club in your area and show it to them. Cutting a chunk off of your possible Nihonto is the opposite of preservation which is what you should be striving for. If you find out for sure that it’s not Nihonto, then you can do whatever you want with it. 

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This sword was purchased to be a cutting sword either way. I’m fairly certain it’s a Chinese reproduction, a decent quality one, that I got for a very good price. 

[NewB]

  On 1/15/2023 at 6:26 AM, Malvakin said:

Thanks for the information everyone! I figured it would be Chinese based on the price, it was very cheap😂 there is definitely a grain pattern, but it’s not easy to see. The Hamon is giving me trouble identifying it, it has qualities that make me think its real (like being similar to the papered wakizashi I have when aimed at a light) and qualities that make me think it’s a fake hamon (looks slightly discolored, almost like a dulled rainbow effect from oil)
Even if it’s a Chinese copy, the fittings are above and beyond standard copies! 
 

Nakago pic attached.

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If that's Japanese made then I'm behind on the most recent developments and forging practices.  Enjoy it. 

 

J.

[Malvakin]

  On 1/15/2023 at 8:40 PM, Darkcon said:

 

If that's Japanese made then I'm behind on the most recent developments and forging practices.  Enjoy it. 

 

J.

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Oh I’m fairly certain it’s not at this point. But as far as Chinese copies go, it’s not half bad. 

[NewB]

  On 1/15/2023 at 9:26 PM, Malvakin said:

Oh I’m fairly certain it’s not at this point. But as far as Chinese copies go, it’s not half bad. 

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Definitely a high quality. I'm not for bashing peoples' reputation as I personally have purchased from the seller. This is why this forum is an extremely useful resource. Lots of educated folks with factual information 

 

J.

[mecox]

I have bought from this seller in the past (around 10 years ago).  One was a nicely made Seki Showato with a Sakura-sho stamp, with damaged wood/leather saya, clearly WW2 and I was pleased with it.  The other was a shinsakuto blade, no shirasaya, nicely made, crisp mei of well known active Seki smith.  I proudly sent a photo and oshigata to the tosho in Seki......he replied with a very nice Japanese card  "thank you but it is not my sword".   Having looked on and off at this seller, he does sell nice newly made blades with fake/forged mei, as well as other items.   So you need to be sure what it is.