Fake or real type 98?

[Minseito1941]

[Bridges]

We’ve discussed this “model” at length. Check out the topic below.

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/42813-type-98-fittings-say-otherwise/

 

[Bruce Pennington]

If I had to bet, I would bet on an occupied territories made Sword. I know conditions can be faked, but these look to be legitimately worn. Plus the beat up company, grade officer tassel adds, an air of legitimacy. But no one knows about these for sure.

[lonely panet]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

If I had to bet, I would bet on an occupied territories made Sword. I know conditions can be faked, but these look to be legitimately worn. Plus the beat up company, grade officer tassel adds, an air of legitimacy. But no one knows about these for sure.

BRUCE, BRUCE PLEASE FROM ME TO YOU 

 

YOU HAVE A BAD HABIT OF HOPING TOO MUCH.  ITS JUST A MODERN FAKE. 

 

PEAPLE SEEM TO GIVE YOUR OPINION VALUE,  SO PLEASE LEARN TO IDENTIFY CRAP.

 

YOU HAVE TO ASKE YOURSELF WHY ARNT ANY OLDTIMER COLLECTORS FROM 40 YEARS AGO KNOW THER s**t BUT ALL THE NEW GUYS DONT?

[vajo]

Found another...

 

call was on papua new guinea

[Shamsy]

Looks like a fake to me I'm afraid. It's not one of the Chinese swords, doesn't match that 'pattern'. Genuine island swords are really hard to identify, especially when a lot of the early Chinese fakes are old enough to be getting a true patina. Unless you know a sword to be picked up in theatre based on provenance, or it's got the Java marked nakago, best to stay on the side of caution, I think. I wouldn't ever chase an 'island' sword unless it was Java marked, personally.

[vajo]

Hamfish it is collector trash.

But please, we wan't to find out if these swords were made in the war and worn. It is not from a collectors view. Its from the view of interest of history.

 

Its not from me Steve someone said that these swords were made in papua new guinea. I don't know if its true and i have no evidence about it. 

 

Silver plated habaki?

 

Those fittings are not industrial made. They are handmade as i wrote before. No chinese faker take his time to engrave and chissle by hand.

Belive what you want. 

 

Take your time an compare those - you will see it.

 

[lonely panet]

ITS NOT A TYPE 98, ITS NOT Japanese AND IMHO IT NOT EVAN WW2.

 

IF YOU WANT TO INVENT A  NEW NON Japanese STYLE WW2 SWORD AND TRY AND PIN HOPE TO IT.  MORE POWER TO YOU GUYS, BUT I DONT THINK ITS HELPFULL OR EDUCTIONAL.

 

 

LOOK IV BEEN A MEMBERS FOR A LONG TIME,  IVE COLLECTED FOR A LONG TIME, 20 YEARS PLUS.  THIS STUFF IS SO NEW ITS NOT FUNNY.

 

IF IT WAS ABOUT 25YEARS AGO I WOULD HAVE MORE RESPECT OR IT,  BUT IT WASNT.

 

SCAMMERS WILL SCAM,  YOU ALL THINK IT TAKES MONTHS TO MAKE THERE PIECES OF JUNK.  I BET ALL IT TAKES IS A COUPLE OF DAYS

MAX. 

 

imho ISLAND SWORDS ARE A MYTH

 

[vajo]

Why should a faker, fake a fantasy Typ98 sword if there are hundred of thousends original Typ98 swords available. Show me the maker site where i can buy the swords above. 

 

That is a faker site.

New Coming Swords Handmade Officer's Katana Shin Gunto Japanese Samurai Sword (lyuesword.com)

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Agree with Shamsy, wartime pictures/provenance are needed to confirm if it's authentic WWII crap or postwar crap......

[robinalexander]

)Maybe we should have a dedicated thread for 'Island Swords' ...that would make collection and comparison easier plus, any documentary proof could be recorded.

 

But on this sword though, I just don't believe its anything close to WW2. If I was going to dress up a fake to look WW2 then this is the way I would do it.  What has caused that (all over) 'wear' on them ito and yet the fittings are 'good' ? .....the tassell...really ? ....and so many problems with the nakago.. more than a few things gone astray here.

 

Personally, I like historical prices that have 'been there, done that' .... particularly with some form of provenance but even I wouldn't waste my time on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave R]

 I am thinking made for subject troops in China. We know that the Japanese authorities did not allow such to carry genuine Gunto, but were OK with "lookalikes". 

 Would I buy one, not at an online auction, not without handling, and not for much money. I would pay curio prices perhaps, if there was not anything better on the tables.

[BANGBANGSAN]

7 hours ago, Dave R said:

 I am thinking made for subject troops in China. We know that the Japanese authorities did not allow such to carry genuine Gunto, but were OK with "lookalikes". 

 

Agree,it should be made in China for the puppet troops.Here is another very similar one with 顺 mark on the tang.

 

[Shamsy]

8 hours ago, robinalexander said:

Maybe we should have a dedicated thread for 'Island Swords'.

 

Personally, I like historical prices that have 'been there, done that' .... particularly with some form of provenance

 

I think we do have such a thread buried somewhere... pretty sure it's called Island Swords or something. 

 

I've only ever encountered one sword I can absolutely and certainly verify is an 'island sword', though there are probably better terms for it. Theatre made maybe. I had a thread on it I'll try to find. Came from the veterans brother along with a few other bits. Picked up after being left behind by Japanese forces. So obviously not considered worth taking.

 

Not sure I recall any others discusses on the board with provenance? 

 

It's an interesting topic, as we know there were theatre made swords made by POW from POW accounts, we know a Japanese team made swords (thanks Dave), we know there were swords made in China and think we have identified them (thanks Kippu and others), we know Java had sword production and a few examples, we know collaboration forces used non-Japanese swords... but it's such a minefield topic.

[John C]

It seems in some ways these were produced for troops, though as cheaply as possible. The troops may then have engaged in "trench art" to simulate the real thing during down time. But I agree that it would be too much effort for a fake... make a casting and get it over with if you are going to fake it.

Just thinking out loud.

 

John C.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Sham , we also know that industrious Australian troops were turning out " Japanese swords " to sell to the Americans . Other nationalities were probably doing this as well . I came across a fair number of jeep spring / island made swords that returned soldiers were selling in the 1970's. These were obviously genuine world war two artifacts but even then you could not tell what was Japanese made and what was made by others . The sword that is said to be made in New Guinea is not a type that I came across (( and I saw probably several thousand swords ). Given that there are a few of this type floating around out there I think it can safely be said that it was not made in New Guinea. As someone else commented elsewhere why bother about this junk when there are so many good interesting and genuine items to collect 

[vajo]

It isn't the question about collection of these crap swords. It is the question are there swords from ww2 or after war.

 

Collecting swords is not a religion. I was allways against this island sword theory. But over the years Bruce, Shamsy, Kippu, Dave and others talk about it, i try to broaden my horizon and try to look over the table. 

 

Why not?

 

 

Japanese army officer's sword | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

 

The shape of that blade is total wrong. If you would offer me that one i would say chinese made after war. But now i must realize that Japanese officer indeed wear such a piece of metal.

 

[vajo]

Museum Jakarta Perumusan in Indonesia.

[INFO KOLEKSI : Katana / Gunto] - Museum Perumusan Naskah Proklamasi (kemdikbud.go.id)

Gunto is basically a sword or katana carried by Japanese soldiers especially officers. In the era of acceleration ww2 gunto underwent fabrication for military needs. In the PETA Era many PETA officers had Gunto but the condition was local reproduction because the sanctity or sacredness of the original Katana could only be given by the family for generations or captured by the enemy in war. The findings of this collection are from the Cianjur area

[vajo]

[Bruce Pennington]

The whole topic has been worthwhile to me.  I started out with the mindset that there were perfect, mil spec Japanese gunto - and everything else was Chinese fakery.  Since then, I've learned so much of the history of the times back then, the struggles the industry went through as mainland factories were decimated, and the atrocious practice of dumping entire brigades of men in isolated tropical locales and leaving them to survive or die.  Make-shift forges in occupied territory, traveling repair teams, even a known POW who made blades - all were unknown to me until we started this sprawling look into what the collection world considered junk.  Throw on top of all that the knowledge of Allied fakers, and it's turned into quite a jumbled mess.  But it's no longer simply just real or fake.  

 

And as to buying/collecting them - that is the age-old debate of my taste vs your taste.  If it's not your bailywic (there's a Word of the Day!), go do what you enjoy and stop knocking those who enjoy such history.

[Shamsy]

12 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Sham , we also know that industrious Australian troops were turning out " Japanese swords " to sell to the Americans . Other nationalities were probably doing this as well . 

 

This one slipped my mind, but yes, just another option to add to the minefield that has come to be labelled 'Island Swords'. I seriously doubt there will ever be much definitive to say about them, other than some are from WW2 and are historical artefacts. Some not.

 

12 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

The sword that is said to be made in New Guinea is not a type that I came across (( and I saw probably several thousand swords ). Given that there are a few of this type floating around out there I think it can safely be said that it was not made in New Guinea. 

 

I agree. I think the original sword in this post is Chinese in origin and unrelated to the war. That was my first post and that opinion stands. Thank you for the insight about their appearance being recent and not matching anything you've seen before. That's also my primary concern. A repeated 'pattern' only recently seen. Doesn't make me think it's anything genuine and I don't think a little craftsmanship (not sure I'd call it that in good faith) is compelling. 

 

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

all were unknown to me until we started this sprawling look into what the collection world considered junk.  Throw on top of all that the knowledge of Allied fakers, and it's turned into quite a jumbled mess.  But it's no longer simply just real or fake.  

 

We have found interesting snippets of history, which I think goes along with what Chris is saying. We learn through enquiry. That doesn't just apply to these swords. The Type 95 has had so much new information discovered in the past few years through the dedicated theories and research of a few, despite the insistence of self styled 'experts' that there is nothing new to learn beyond the books. I guess what I'm getting at here is that there is still more to learn in just about every field and it's best to keep an open mind. I still remember the reams of 'It's fake' comments on a posted sword, only to have the poor owner pop the handle and find the Java sword works marks all over the tang.

 

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

And as to buying/collecting them - that is the age-old debate of my taste vs your taste.  If it's not your bailywic (there's a Word of the Day!), go do what you enjoy and stop knocking those who enjoy such history.

 

Pretty much this. I don't enjoy sport at all. Boring and pointless, in my opinion. But I don't find every sports thread to tell people that. It's fine to have an opinion. Say if you think it's fake or not. Preferably add to the argument if you have something worth saying, like Ian. But there is NO call to deride, ridicule or make fun of people who are interested, even if misguided at times.

 

I enjoy history. Particularly military history (typically as a time of great cultural and technological revolution). I enjoy all aspects of it. I like nihonto. I like militaria. I like to learn, debate and chat to like minded people. So leave the weirdoes like me who poke around niches in niches and waste our time as we see fit.

 

NOTE: We do need to be careful about what we say about these kind of swords though. We need to be responsible and state what is conjecture. Last thing we want to do is 'make up' history in a well intentioned effort to be open minded or explain an oddity.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 1/13/2023 at 1:34 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Agree,it should be made in China for the puppet troops.Here is another very similar one with 顺 mark on the tang.

 

 

Trystan,

Isn't this tassel the Brown/Tan Railway tassel?  Do you have more photos showing the tassel?

[BANGBANGSAN]

54 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

Trystan,

Isn't this tassel the Brown/Tan Railway tassel?  Do you have more photos showing the tassel?

Bruce

It doesn't look like the railway tassel to me but looks like the same material as the handle cord.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

48 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

same material as the handle cord

You may be right.  Seems a little unusual that the handle cord would be two tone colored.  The tassel seems to be darker on one side than the other.  Such a railway tassel would add considerable weight to the legitimacy of the sword.  Fakers wouldn't likely know about the brown/tan or brown/cream colored tassels.

[Kiipu]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:34 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Here is another very similar one with 顺 mark on the tang.

 

I have seen another one on eBay with the same character back in November (courtesy of @John C).  However, the fittings were different.

Emergency Late War Officer Gunto

 

I am of the same opinion, regardless of what others have said, that these are current reproductions.  Again, why are these all showing at the same time?

Mumei Guntō Fake or Real?, Post #9

 

Whether you like it or not, this nonsense will only continue and has only gotten better over time.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

I am of the same opinion, regardless of what others have said, that these are current reproductions.  Again, why are these all showing at the same time?

I noticed that point when you made it earlier, and it’s a very good point.  
 

I’m going to keep an open mind about it all.

[vajo]

Another one.

on Facebook (Mr. Bowman)

He said bring brack from his Grandfather (Higher ranking Marine, was on the Missouri during the time of surrender).

Blade has a leather saya.

 

The kabutogane is the same made as the other swords we discuss but different in work.

Those swords all have a bringback story. I can't belive that these swords are faked.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Chris, you need to download the images and re-upload for them to load. Or screenshot them and paste.

 

As for the story, it does add a different dimension. You can certainly imagine any officer worth his salt turning in one of these stinkers rather than his real sword over to the US forces......

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Chris , I don't know if Mr Bowman is trying to imply that this sword was surrendered on the Missouri or not, but if he is ,then it is false as no swords were surrendered on the Missouri . If the mans grandfather was on the Missouri on the day of the surrrender then he was not in the Islands at the time and presumably wasn't in a position to pick up an Island made sword after the surrender . This is because he was in Japan not the islands where these monstrosities are said to come from  . The story is rubbish as is the sword . 

Ian Brooks

[Shamsy]

Bring back stories are a dime a dozen. Usually to try and legitimise a questionable sword or to add some romance and history to an otherwise unremarkable sword. Without records, photos or proof of some kind, take all of them with a grain of salt.

 

I've mentioned this before, but I've only ever encountered a single sword in the wild that was not Japanese in nature and can be definitively labelled an 'island' sword. Museums have a handful more. Include the Java swords. The point being there aren't many and for good reason.