How much should I spend?

[Bridges]

Hey all,

I will be bidding on this very nice gunto this week and I’m expecting some heavy competition and high prices. This may be my first big purchase. You all have been doing this much longer than I, where should I stop myself? I foresee this going well over 1200 USD and maybe even into 2,000 USD. This appears to be immaculate but I don’t want to over pay. Going off the tang, I’m seeing old and new rust so I’m assuming it has been cleaned at some point.

[David Flynn]

1000000 Mexican Peso's

[Ontario_Archaeology]

Kyu gunto prices are all over the place, especially when it comes to more unique items, you are never 100% sure what the final price will be. 2000 usd would be a bit high if I were to bid.  For reference I purchased a "flashier" kyu for 3250 last May, it has 7 silver imperial mons on it. 

 

People have stated the market has taken a bit of a dive, I'm not sure how true that is but really it comes down to how much you want to spend. 

 

Also careful, that auction has a 25% buyers premium and auction fees do pile up fast. 

 

There is another kyu gunto in that auction starting at 3000 usd that previously sold a few months earlier for 4500, but I'm pretty sure it isn't worth close to that. Maybe 2000-2500 without all the fees. The prices in collecting is based off of how interested people are and I belive kyu gunto just take a back seat to other unique shin and kai gunto, therefore command a lower premium. 

 

With all that being said. Spend what you want to spend, set a price you are comfortable with in your head and stick with it (maybe go 100 or 200 over if you get excited). 

 

Hope this helps. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Don't forget auction premiums (usually around 15-20%) and shipping which can often be quite expensive. If you need someone to tell how how much to bid, perhaps it's not a good idea to be spending that much. 

[Bridges]

Matt and John, totally slipped my mind regarding the auction fee. As you pointed out, the market is all over the place. I try to look back on past bids but then inflation and market interest comes into play into the past bid and it really skews my pricing ability. I’ve never seen one like this but I’m also new to this so I don’t want to get burned. John, fair point. Money isn’t really this issue rather, I don’t want to overpay and if I were to sell down the road to fund another piece, lose money. Granted, that could happen regardless as Matt pointed out with market interest.

[John C]

As Matt H. said, I have not seen a dip in the market. I have yet to find a sword at low prices that others say they pay. But that said, remember that any collectable is speculative - may go up our down - based on current interest. So IMHO, pay what you are comfortable with if you really want it. Enjoy it. Stare at it. Study it. I think the only real regret is not owning the one you wish you had bought for your collection.

John C.

[Ontario_Archaeology]

I'll add that as a collector sometimes you don't always think with your wallet, and will go for an item you really want. After more "window shopping" and years of looking at the 1000s of swords that come to auction or for sale every year you will find out that there are some you can't live without and will keep you up at night if you miss out on it and it might just be you and someone else driving the sword price up 1000s.

 

That being said, don't be a sucker, and make sure you always do your research before spending big money. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Noah,

It is Field grade Type 19 cavalry sword.  

From Dawson, pg 101: "On July 6, 1886, the Japanese army introduce a new sword for the exclusive use of cavalry officers."  Field grade examples on pg 106-7.  

 

The one you've posted is a nice example.  I like the arches at the top of the wire wrap.  Don't know pricing, so like guys already said, you have to know how much you want it and stick to your high-bid limit.  Twice, over time, I've paid way over market value for gunto, but I REALLY wanted those particular ones for my collection.  To this day, I'm still glad I over-paid to have them.  

[BANGBANGSAN]

It has 造兵刀  Zōhei-tō blade.The mark 造兵廠 セ indicates the blade was made in 小倉陸軍造兵廠 第二製造所 Kokura Army Arsenal Second factory.

[Okan]

Noah, if you have the budget and living in the states, why don't you buy a blade in polish from a member in the board? 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It has 造兵刀  Zōhei-tō blade.The mark 造兵廠 セ indicates the blade was made in 小倉陸軍造兵廠 第二製造所 Kokura Army Arsenal Second factory.

is this mark common @BANGBANGSAN?  I havent seen it before, but im not a gunto guy

[Bridges]

Hey Okan, I haven’t seen any members post guntos and this one is in magnificent condition. I’d love to see some on NHMB but no dice yet

[Ontario_Archaeology]

2 hours ago, Bridges said:

Hey Okan, I haven’t seen any members post guntos and this one is in magnificent condition. I’d love to see some on NHMB but no dice yet

You can make a post on the "Wanted to buy" section and some people will send you what they have. It is very exciting and very easy to jump onto the first gunto you see, but as I said earlier you will end up seeing 1000s every year if you are always looking at auction sites, forum sales, and classifieds. Even look through old posts and the sold archives. I am pretty sure you can search "gunto" and specify by what sub forum to search and only get those results. 

Figure out what you really want, then splurge. If this Kyu is what you want, go for it! 

[BANGBANGSAN]

8 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

is this mark common @BANGBANGSAN?  I havent seen it before, but im not a gunto guy

The Kanji 造兵廠 is not very common, but it pops up from time to time. I have a few Zōhei-tō have these Kanji on the tang.

[Bridges]

Well all, my wife is going to kill me but I won the bid at 1,100. I’m figuring after shipping I’ll be in 1,400. I know it is a little high but I don’t think I’ll see another in this condition for a while! Thoughts?

[Seth]

Congratulations Noah, enjoy.

[John C]

41 minutes ago, Bridges said:

Thoughts?

Noah:

Like I said before, the only regret is not owning the one you wish had bought when you had the chance. I just bought an RJT Kanehide for 1,700 (with shipping). Did I pay too much? Probably, but now I own one and, so far, don't regret it.

John C. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

That's a reasonable price all said and done. 

[Kiipu]

Before the war, Japanese officers could purchase an arsenal made blade via a sword company.  The sword in the OP is an example of this.  For those in doubt, attached is a page from the Gunjin Kaikan 軍人会會館 catalog from April 1937.  If one looks closely, one can see the kanji characters for an arsenal made blade.

陸軍造兵廠刀身 = Rikugun Zōheishō Tōshin = Army Arsenal Sword Blade.

[Bridges]

Thanks PNS I thought so too! John C, I couldn’t agree more. I’m very happy I did not pass on this purchase. @Kiiputhats very interesting! Let me ask you this, @Bruce Pennington posted a portion of Dawkins book regarding the post. I’m not home as of now to cross reference but did they make this model that late into the 1900’s? When I get home I’ll check but going off what Bruce posted, is this a glorified type 32?!

[Kiipu]

The army sword in the OP would have been made up until about 1934.  Afterwards, Japanese army officers would have used the traditional dress sword and the newly adopted Type 94.

 

The arsenals made two types of blades, the officer variant and the military Type 32/95 blades.  There are small differences between them.

 

@PNSSHOGUN sold one with these 造兵廠セ markings last year.

Early Type 94/98 Zohei-To 造兵厂 Mei.

[Kiipu]

During this period, the 陸軍造兵廠 was the headquarters (HQ) that controlled the arsenals.  The American military attache referred to it as the "arsenal directorate," while today it is translated as "army arsenal."  It was established in 1923 and was abolished in 1940.  At the time of establishment, it controlled the four arsenals 工廠 of Gunpowder 火, Nagoya 名古屋, Ōsaka 大阪, and Tōkyō 東京, and the two ordnance (or weapon) factories 兵器製造所 of Heijō 平壌 and Kokura 小倉.

 

In 1940, the arsenals and supply depots were placed under one command and the "Army Arsenal" was absorbed by the new command.  It was at this time that the arsenals 工廠 were renamed as 陸軍造兵廠.

[Bridges]

Hey @Kiipu, if I’m understanding you correctly. The renamed arsenal stamped my blade after 1940. How is that possible if the cavalry model was discontinued in 1932? Could the whole gunto be special ordered or is this a case of old fittings on a “new” blade?

[Kiipu]

The standalone marking of 造兵廠 would only appear from 1923 to 1940.  Why would you think it was made after 1940?  After 1940, it was only used as a suffix, such as Nagoya Army Arsenal 名古屋陸軍造兵廠.

[Bridges]

“It was at this time that the arsenals 工廠 were renamed as 陸軍造兵廠.”

@Kiipu, I do not know kanji but I saw where you said the Arsenal was renamed to 陸軍造兵廠 and the kanji 兵廠 is on the tang unless I’m misreading it. That’s why I thought the blade would be made after 1940 as the renamed arsenal appears on the nakago but I don’t know kanji so you would have to enlighten me.

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Kiipu said:

During this period, the 陸軍造兵廠 was the headquarters (HQ) that controlled the arsenals.  The American military attache referred to it as the "arsenal directorate," while today it is translated as "army arsenal."  It was established in 1923 and was abolished in 1940.  At the time of establishment, it controlled the four arsenals 工廠 of Gunpowder 火, Nagoya 名古屋, Ōsaka 大阪, and Tōkyō 東京, and the two ordnance (or weapon) factories 兵器製造所 of Heijō 平壌 and Kokura 小倉.

 

In 1940, the arsenals and supply depots were placed under one command and the "Army Arsenal" was absorbed by the new command.  It was at this time that the arsenals 工廠 were renamed as 陸軍造兵廠.

Pardon my interruption, but Thomas, I dearly hope you have a book in the works! Please!

[PNSSHOGUN]

The example in Kyu Gunto mountings on Page 68 of Swords of Imperial Japan  1868 - 1945.

 

[Ontario_Archaeology]

On 1/14/2023 at 4:14 PM, Bridges said:

Well all, my wife is going to kill me but I won the bid at 1,100. I’m figuring after shipping I’ll be in 1,400. I know it is a little high but I don’t think I’ll see another in this condition for a while! Thoughts?

You did well, you can't go wrong at 1400 when buying something like this. I watched the auction live and had my fingers crossed for you that you were the winning bid. Lots of the swords went unsold in that auction, glad you were able to get a deal. Enjoy! 

[Bridges]

Thanks Matt!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Now you just need a knot/tassel for it, there are three different appropriate options:

 

• Black all ranks knot
• Field grade Kyu Gunto knot
• Field grade Shin Gunto tassel