Tsuba cleaning.

[Lee997]

I’ve just received my 1st Tsuba and the seller was kind enough to include a piece of ivory and some cleaning tips and a link to Jim Gilbert’s guide.

I’ve worked with metal most of my life having been an engineer but never attempted cleaning or restoration at such a careful level.

 

this afternoon I’ve sat and rubbed away at a small spot as a test and although I can see orange dust coming away ( which of course means rust is being removed) but after a period of rubbing then cleaning with a cloth it doesn’t look a great deal different? 
 

I don’t expect instant results but am I doing the right thing simply rubbing with the edge of the Veneer of ivory ( in a scrapping motion on the surface of the Tsuba) ?

 

also Jim Gilbert’s guide recommends boiling in water to clean, this Tsuba has the remains of gold patterns around the edge, ( which all seems very well attached) could this be damaged in any boiling water treatment ? 

[ROKUJURO]

Lee,

the best thing is to post TSUBA related subjects in the TSUBA section so you get good replies.

The rust on your nice TSUBA has built up in many years, so don't expect to just wipe it away in a minute. In my experience it can take weeks and some patience, depending on the condition. Restoration is of course especially difficult where gold (or other soft metal) comes into play.  In many cases you will be confronted with the decision of what to lose.....rust or thin gold overlay!

Jim Gilbert is a known expert, but as with so many, their expertise is more in the field of arts and history and not so much in technique and materials. Please don't boil your TSUBA!  

[rematron]

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

the best thing is to post TSUBA related subjects in the TSUBA section so you get good replies.

 

 

I thought this was the TSUBA section?

Tosogu

For the Discussion of Genuine Japanese Tsuba and Fittings

[ROKUJURO]

Yes, now it is!

[rematron]

8 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Yes, now it is!

 

Oh! I'm late to the conversation... I just was thinking: "Have I missed something blatantly obvious in my few weeks on the forum?" 

[Brian]

I moved it

[rkg]

Lee,

 

Let's see, where to begin.

 

First off, you probably need a few more tools in your "box" - something made of bamboo (I seem to use chopsticks a lot)  as well as brushes of various kinds are also extremely helpful for dealing with minor corrosion.  I'm partial to those Japanese horsehair brushes and small natural bristle (or sometimes sable) artists brushes with most of the brush cut off (I leave about  ~1/8" (3.2mm) sticking ).  And cloth of course - you can rub through several layers with a chopstick end for finer work.  There are also these large brushes that are made out of bamboo or something they use for cleaning pans or something I think - it can do a number on large areas of corrosion, but you have to be really careful with those.

 

In general the brushes/cloth are slower and it is much harder to damage "good" patina, though you still have to be really really careful around nunome - I've had pieces where the nunome is corroded from the back, hanging by a thread or was basically glued on by wax and it basically fell off - I was really sad with the following one - a piece of the kanji just simply fell off while I was carefully handling the piece trying to figure out where to begin (the piece had a heavy layer of wax hiding a multitude of sins).

 

Second, many tsuba have been doctored a lot and are coated with a heavy layer of wax to minimize/obscure real issues.  As Jean alluded to, It's sometimes a real hard choice to decide what should be done to a piece when you are trying to fix corrosion like this, as often most of what you are looking at isn't "real" crud, but stuff added by a later collector/dealer to make the piece look/sell better.  This stuff is kind of evil as it is protective of stable patina -  but when put over corrosion it does little to inhibit it (n fact I think it helps it as it forms a crust that allows the bad rust to continue corroding under it), it gums up your brushes, lubricates the surface so the ivory isn't as effective, etc - but... stripping the whole piece can also lift off legitimate old crud (think of any area you can't touch/wouldn't touch in use) and there are too many restorers in the world that indiscriminately remove the stuff you look at to determine the age of a piece.  It is really sad to see a legitimate ko-kinko piece made to look like an Edo period copy :-/  But I digress.  There are times when the piece has so many problems that you have little to lose by boiling, etc but as often or not you can use isopropyl alcohol to get the wax off where you want to work.  But on the other hand, if you are using ivory it ablates off and fills the surface of the rust goober and you -have- to periodically remove that (usually by washing the piece) in order to continue working on it.

 

And I guess that's third - you have to think real carefully about where to conserve and how much - my personal  rule is not to mess with any area you couldn't touch with your finger easily when handling the piece, but that's my opinion and I'm sure others have different ones.

 

And finally, don't expect miracles - While there are some pieces that tend to corrode "elegantly" (early yamakichibei often do, some ko tosho/katchushi, etc), most pieces don't, and when you chip off ugly spots like the one in your picture as often as not the base surface isn't going to look very good (looks like sandpaper or deep pits, etc).  And sometimes you end up with little "mountains" of corrosion that just aren't going to come off w/o extreme measures.  

 

In general you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse w/o some really brutal work ( redong the surfaces and/or repatinating, filling pits/other damage with bondo and painting, putting on a heavy layer of wax to hide stuff, etc).  They would repatinate back in the day, but man, if you have a piece you think has been primped by any modern restorer, you're better off not touching it, as you have no idea what's underneath (or sometimes you do - there are some really badly bodged pieces as well as modern er, utushi on Yahoo!Japan these days).

 

Good Luck,

rkg

(Richard George)

P.S, also, when working on areas like that, think small circular motions - I've seen a tremendous number of peices where rust was scraped off with linear motions and they ran off onto the good patina on either side and it looks like hell (until they put that heavy layer of wax on....).

 

[Lee997]

4 hours ago, rkg said:

Lee,

 

Let's see, where to begin.

 

First off, you probably need a few more tools in your "box" - something made of bamboo (I seem to use chopsticks a lot)  as well as brushes of various kinds are also extremely helpful for dealing with minor corrosion.  I'm partial to those Japanese horsehair brushes and small natural bristle (or sometimes sable) artists brushes with most of the brush cut off (I leave about  ~1/8" (3.2mm) sticking ).  And cloth of course - you can rub through several layers with a chopstick end for finer work.  There are also these large brushes that are made out of bamboo or something they use for cleaning pans or something I think - it can do a number on large areas of corrosion, but you have to be really careful with those.

 

In general the brushes/cloth are slower and it is much harder to damage "good" patina, though you still have to be really really careful around nunome - I've had pieces where the nunome is corroded from the back, hanging by a thread or was basically glued on by wax and it basically fell off - I was really sad with the following one - a piece of the kanji just simply fell off while I was carefully handling the piece trying to figure out where to begin (the piece had a heavy layer of wax hiding a multitude of sins).

 

Second, many tsuba have been doctored a lot and are coated with a heavy layer of wax to minimize/obscure real issues.  As Jean alluded to, It's sometimes a real hard choice to decide what should be done to a piece when you are trying to fix corrosion like this, as often most of what you are looking at isn't "real" crud, but stuff added by a later collector/dealer to make the piece look/sell better.  This stuff is kind of evil as it is protective of stable patina -  but when put over corrosion it does little to inhibit it (n fact I think it helps it as it forms a crust that allows the bad rust to continue corroding under it), it gums up your brushes, lubricates the surface so the ivory isn't as effective, etc - but... stripping the whole piece can also lift off legitimate old crud (think of any area you can't touch/wouldn't touch in use) and there are too many restorers in the world that indiscriminately remove the stuff you look at to determine the age of a piece.  It is really sad to see a legitimate ko-kinko piece made to look like an Edo period copy :-/  But I digress.  There are times when the piece has so many problems that you have little to lose by boiling, etc but as often or not you can use isopropyl alcohol to get the wax off where you want to work.  But on the other hand, if you are using ivory it ablates off and fills the surface of the rust goober and you -have- to periodically remove that (usually by washing the piece) in order to continue working on it.

 

And I guess that's third - you have to think real carefully about where to conserve and how much - my personal  rule is not to mess with any area you couldn't touch with your finger easily when handling the piece, but that's my opinion and I'm sure others have different ones.

 

And finally, don't expect miracles - While there are some pieces that tend to corrode "elegantly" (early yamakichibei often do, some ko tosho/katchushi, etc), most pieces don't, and when you chip off ugly spots like the one in your picture as often as not the base surface isn't going to look very good (looks like sandpaper or deep pits, etc).  And sometimes you end up with little "mountains" of corrosion that just aren't going to come off w/o extreme measures.  

 

In general you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse w/o some really brutal work ( redong the surfaces and/or repatinating, filling pits/other damage with bondo and painting, putting on a heavy layer of wax to hide stuff, etc).  They would repatinate back in the day, but man, if you have a piece you think has been primped by any modern restorer, you're better off not touching it, as you have no idea what's underneath (or sometimes you do - there are some really badly bodged pieces as well as modern er, utushi on Yahoo!Japan these days).

 

Good Luck,

rkg

(Richard George)

P.S, also, when working on areas like that, think small circular motions - I've seen a tremendous number of peices where rust was scraped off with linear motions and they ran off onto the good patina on either side and it looks like hell (until they put that heavy layer of wax on....).

 

many thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail, it’s very much appreciated and very informative, I’ll certainly take a lot out of your reply.

rgds, Lee