“Wild” Koto Soshu(?)hirazukuri Wakizashi, help please!

[Matsunoki]

Hello from the UK

I am showing this sword hoping for some help figuring out what it might be. All opinions welcome.  I should at least venture an opinion….Muromachi Mino den but maybe Soshu??

It is truly a very wild blade but quite reduced from many polishes (no hamachi, greatly reduced kasane and motohaba). There is full length nie mune yaki, the mune is Mitsumune, the nie based hamon is not quite hitatsura (in my opinion) but there are tobiyaki and copious ji-nie clouds away from the hamon everywhere. 
Hada is not visible in this condition….typical “as found condition” for the UK….sorry!

Nakago is ubu but it has obviously had a Mei removed…odds on it was Masamune!

The koshirae is silver mounted with Inaba? Kamon (but at right angles to usual?)

If you tap the images you should get higher resolution.

Nagasa 42cm

Motohaba 3.1cm remains

Many thanks.

All the best. Colin

 

[Gakusee]

Reminds me of something like Fuyuhiro. Separately, the nakago looks re-shaped. 

[Rivkin]

Its an interesting case in a sense that stylewise a very active Bizen in nie can and is mistaken for Soshu. In both cases you have choji-togari with lots of ups and downs , in both cases the hada plays the secondary role...

 

I think this is late Muromachi Kaga. This is when such hirazukuri waki were most popular, the nakago has Kaga shape (though damaged), and the hamon is more Bizen than Soshu - and Kaga liked to produce this style. One can even state "Kaga Kiyomitsu", 4th generation, but I have to run before the "friends of NBTHK" volunteer unit gets on my case for yet another illegal kantei.

[Alex A]

Interesting sword Colin,

 

Seems rare that style of blade with that particular nakago-jiri.

[Matsunoki]

12 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Separately, the nakago looks re-shaped. 

Thanks Michael, I will look at Fuyuhiro. To help me if you have time please could you say why you think nakago is reshaped…..which areas? I was convinced it was original except for the removed Mei. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

The outlines of the Nakago should taper smooth while yours has some swelling up in the middle also the Nakagojiri does look not original. 

[Gakusee]

Indeed, the nakago is shortish and the haside and muneside are not smooth but have trajectory changes

[Jacques]

Typical Kaga nakago jiri ..

[Matsunoki]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Indeed, the nakago is shortish and the haside and muneside are not smooth but have trajectory changes

Its strange, in hand it isn’t nearly as “apparent” as in the images. On the ha edge there has been some deep erosion by rust roughly halfway along which I think is what makes that edge looks far worse. The mune edge appearance has been a bit affected by the rather clumsy removal of the Mei. However the mune edge at the jiri does look to taper a bit more sharply than perhaps it should. No changes in any patina  nor any noticeable signs of reworking but then if was done a few hundred years ago there wouldn’t be! 
Thank you both….it makes me look more closely.

 

2 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

The outlines of the Nakago should taper smooth while yours has some swelling up in the middle also the Nakagojiri does look not original. 

 

[Gakusee]

Colin, indeed the patina seems consistent etc. However, smiths took (and still take) pride in how they finished the nakago and the symmetry and smooth lines of a pristine nakago were usually impeccable. So, any such deviations, lumpiness etc tends to indicate reworking (not always shortening, mind you, even though often there was such). 
 

[Matsunoki]

15 hours ago, Rivkin said:

I think this is late Muromachi Kaga. This is when such hirazukuri waki were most popular, the nakago has Kaga shape (though damaged), and the hamon is more Bizen than Soshu - and Kaga liked to produce this style. One can even state "Kaga Kiyomitsu", 4th generation, but I have to run before the "friends of NBTHK" volunteer unit gets on my case for yet another illegal kantei.

Thanks Kirill, as confirmed above ( Jacques) the nakago jiri is indeed typical Kaga…..I didn’t know that. My initial searching cannot find a similar Kaga Kiyomitsu hamon (either sword or oshigata). My library is very small.  If you have any spare time could you show me one? Greatly appreciate your help. All the best. Colin

[Gakusee]

Kaga nakago jiri shape - yes in theory, but look at the streamlined nakago shape of unaltered nakago here: https://markussesko.com/2015/04/20/kantei-1-sugata-8/

 

Also, not convinced this is the original nakago or original jiri….

 

Muromachi, yes, agree on that. 

 

Finally, while indeed Kaga had similar nakago jiri (but leaner, longer, more graceful nakago), consider  this here. 
 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

27 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Finally, while indeed Kaga had similar nakago jiri (but leaner, longer, more graceful nakago), consider  this here. 

Thank you Michael, please persevere with my lack of knowledge!

The second oshigata you show (Bingo Fuyuhiro?) is certainly very interesting with the very similar hardening and lively muneyaki. I can see how that nakago could be shortened and reworked to perhaps give a more Soshu feel and a Masamune Mei added?? …..now removed ….leaving behind a confusing nakago? That would also explain the mekugi ana appearing to be a little low? But why use an obviously inappropriate jiri?

…….oh, I’ve just noticed your word “finally” above…..sorry!

 

[Jacques]

https://www.nihontoantiques.com/archive/g7.htm

 

 

[Gakusee]

16 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

https://www.nihontoantiques.com/archive/g7.htm

 

 

 

Jacques, thank you for attaching this elongated, elegant, slender Kaga nakago example with typical, steeper jiri than the OP’s one and more proportionate Kaga jiri. 

[Matsunoki]

Please excuse my increasing misunderstanding……why are we comparing the nakago of a large shinshinto katana with that of a typical muromachi period hirazukuri wakizashi? Surely wildly different sugata hundreds of years apart.

[Jacques]

All Kaga swords don't have this typical nakago-jiri but when you see one, you can be sure it is a Kaga sword whatever the era.  I would add that there may be some slight variations

[mecox]

Colin, the nakago outline does look rather rough and I wonder if shortened a bit and reshaped?  The hole looks well down also.  Could the munemachi have been moved up a small bit (compared to remnant hamachi).  Fitting to a new koshirae??

[mecox]

Jacques has a good point.   If I could offer some examples of various Kaga nakago jiri:

 

[Chris Colman]

Hi Malcolm, Nakago of a niji mei Muntesugu katana, the hamon and sugata are very similar to an Ietsugu katana that was for sale on Sanmei Trading some time ago, i had thought he might have been a student of Ietsugu.

[Matsunoki]

10 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

All Kaga swords don't have this typical nakago-jiri but when you see one, you can be sure it is a Kaga sword whatever the era.  I would add that there may be some slight variations

 

10 hours ago, mecox said:

Jacques has a good point.   If I could offer some examples of various Kaga nakago jiri:

Thank you both.

interesting to see Kaga oshigata that suggests they did use this type of hardening with full muneyaki and the subtle variety of jiri (excluding the suriage examples of course)

10 hours ago, mecox said:

Could the munemachi have been moved up a small bit (compared to remnant hamachi).

Good spot…definitely the mune machi has been moved up a bit….but they did not attempt to create a new hamachi at that time. Of course it could have had a small previous full machi okuri as well. This would contribute to the apparently slightly low mekugi ana. 

In hand I still feel the nakago is not shortened but it’s a close call and I would not bet on it.  Many such wakizashi had rather short stubby nakago at this time I believe. Possibly had the nakago edges reworked, definitely had the mune machi moved up a bit. Almost certainly Muromachi.

Anyone else …..please feel free

Thank you all.

Colin