Signature and stamp meaning?

[Kyle]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum. On a whim I picked up what appears to be a WW2 era sword but I'm not certain of that as just have the blade and no mounts. There's a signature and a crude looking stamp and I'm wondering what the stamp means. It would also be helpful to know if the signature means anything but less concerned about that as I'm assuming the stamp will tell if this is a mass produced blade or not. Any help would be much appreciated. 

[John C]

Kyle:

I think both are not original to the blade, meaning they are not factory. The mark is probably a "mon" (family crest) carved into the tang by the owner when he was bored...or after it was surrendered. The signature is fake as well, though this is quite common.

John C.

[Kyle]

Being new to these swords what gives away the signature as being fake?

[ChrisW]

The poor quality of the chiselwork, the crudeness of the individual kanji forms.

[Kyle]

Interesting, that's not something I would know how to evaluate. In my mind I'm looking at the patina of the steel and thinking that the markings were at the least not done recently.

 

I collect and know firearms and bought this on a whim at the periphery of one of those auctions with crappy photos and minimal description. I'm increasingly convinced that was ill advised and I'm out of my depth in this market.

[John C]

It's hard to tell without seeing the rest of the blade. But keep in mind that signatures have always been faked; often times extremely well. In fact, blades are judged on the elements of the blade itself regardless of the signature. Pretend it isn't there and focus on the aspects of the blade. You may find it is a decent war relic after all.

John C.

[Brian]

Nothing there appears real. Even without the poor fake signature, the tang screams fake. The patina and lack of yasurime.
And the mei is 100% terrible. Think of giving a Chinese person an English sentence to engrave. He's get the shapes right, but it would be easily clear he didn't know how to write them.
This is what we are seeing. It takes time and experience, but then they will leap put at you. And that crude "symbol" at the top? Terrible.....and didn't exist. Plus was done by a blind drunk one armed man.
Try and get a refund, this is 100% modern fake.

[ROKUJURO]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

..... Plus was done by a blind drunk one armed man.....

....with the wrong arm left. 

[Kyle]

8 hours ago, Brian said:

Nothing there appears real. Even without the poor fake signature, the tang screams fake. The patina and lack of yasurime.
And the mei is 100% terrible. Think of giving a Chinese person an English sentence to engrave. He's get the shapes right, but it would be easily clear he didn't know how to write them.
This is what we are seeing. It takes time and experience, but then they will leap put at you. And that crude "symbol" at the top? Terrible.....and didn't exist. Plus was done by a blind drunk one armed man.
Try and get a refund, this is 100% modern fake.

Much appreciated, I was expecting a machine made gunto when I bought this and I thought the lack of serial or arsenal marking was strange. I figured I would get burned if I went for one of these but it still hurts a little. Didn't set me back very much so I think I will proceed with a plan of practicing my woodworking by making some basic mounts for this and using it for yardwork.

 

On the markings, the first reply mentioned the possibility of the marks having been made by a soldier. Not saying that happened here but is that a known phenomenon among WW2 issued swords? You see it on firearms from time to time but it's always been frowned upon. 

[Kyle]

11 hours ago, John C said:

It's hard to tell without seeing the rest of the blade. But keep in mind that signatures have always been faked; often times extremely well. In fact, blades are judged on the elements of the blade itself regardless of the signature. Pretend it isn't there and focus on the aspects of the blade. You may find it is a decent war relic after all.

John C.

There's not much of a hamon line to speak of. It doesn't glow like a traditional line but that's a given and if it's etched they didn't put much effort into it. It seems to show up as a shift in the steel grain. I don't know if my photos are good enough to see.  

[John C]

Difficult to see but it does look acid etched. All you can see is a line with no "activity." In addition, the blade is the wrong shape and too evenly "polished", which I believe based on the pictures is just chromed. Best advice is to use this sword as a learning tool to discover what a real sword looks like...and doesn't look like.

Regards,

John C. 

[Kyle]

7 minutes ago, John C said:

Difficult to see but it does look acid etched. All you can see is a line with no "activity." In addition, the blade is the wrong shape and too evenly "polished", which I believe based on the pictures is just chromed. Best advice is to use this sword as a learning tool to discover what a real sword looks like...and doesn't look like.

Regards,

John C. 

Thanks John, I appreciate the help.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Fartmeister said:

On the markings, the first reply mentioned the possibility of the marks having been made by a soldier. Not saying that happened here but is that a known phenomenon among WW2 issued swords?

Nope. Pretty much never. Never seen that ever.
Serials are ONLY found on machine made NCO Gunto with the cast metal handle. Arsenal marks are not on all wartime swords. Not even the majority I think. So those wouldn't have helped much.
Ah well, next one will be better.

[Bruce Pennington]

I would have been fooled by the blade, though badly "polished" with a power buffer.  But the nakago (tang), like Brian said lacks anything that looks Japanese.  

 

I found the last name:

天祐 (Amasuke)

[ROKUJURO]

Bruce,

it may be YAMADA DAISUKE. (SUKE with slightly different KANJI: 佐). In any case, it is not a name of a known swordsmith.

[SteveM]

大佐 also means Colonel. In this case, it would be pronounced taisa. In any case, I agree it is not a smith, and is put there just to give the appearance of authenticity. 

[Kiipu]

That logo also shows up on another reproduction.

Questions about guntō

[Bruce Pennington]

On 1/8/2023 at 1:00 PM, ROKUJURO said:

Bruce,

it may be YAMADA DAISUKE. (SUKE with slightly different KANJI: 佐). In any case, it is not a name of a known swordsmith.

The only famous Yamada Daisuke I could find is a model:

 

There was a Col. Yamada.  He made Colonel in 1926 and eventually Genral.  A brief from Wikipedia:

"With the start of the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937, Yamada was named commander of the IJA 12th Division, based in Manchukuo. During that period, the 12th Division was an elite unit, with a disproportionately large amount of firepower and heavy equipment. He became commander of the IJA 3rd Army in 1938, and that of the Central China Expeditionary Army from 1938 to 1939.

Yamada was promoted to full general in August 1940, and was recalled to Japan to assume the post of Inspector-General of Military Training from 1940 to 1944. He also served as a member of the Supreme War Council during this period. In May 1943 he was promoted to the honorific title of Third Court Rank[2]"

 

Might be the guy this fake is trying to use.

[ROKUJURO]

Bruce,

I like the model, and I'd like to offer her to work in my forge!  Surprizing that DAISUKE could also be a female first name.

Anyhow, I don't think the fakers would care to research famous names from the WWII period as there are so many swordsmith's names available.

[Nobody]

16 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Bruce,

I like the model, and I'd like to offer her to work in my forge!  Surprizing that DAISUKE could also be a female first name.
.......................................

 

DAISUKE must be the male designer's name, not the model.

[ROKUJURO]

MORIYAMA-SAN,

thank you!