Tadayoshi's utsushi

[Jacques]

About Tadayoshi's utsushi, who can tell me how to recognize a Naoe-Shizu utsushi and their production period ?

[Jacques]

Thank you . I know the answer, but there are not many to suggest something

[David Flynn]

I don't think the appraiser  knows much.  I don't think he can tell the difference between Yamashiro, Yamato and Mino.

[Jacques]

It's just a kind of kantei.

[John C]

Jacques:

In an effort to learn, I'll bite.

Firstly, I had to google "utsushi", which I assume means "copy." Secondly, I looked for a connection between Tadayoshi and the Naoe-Shizu school. I could not find a connection, though admittedly my resources are quite limited. I did find out there were 9 generations of Tadayoshi, with the 8th gen not receiving a title (from Nagayama). Next, I looked up the qualities of the Naoe-Shizu school. I found an article that referenced the following description about a Naoe-Shizu blade:

"This blade demonstrates many of the qualities that make Naoe-Shizu stand out above the norms of the time. The sugata is grand without being excessive, the hada tight and clear with a lot of activity and the hamon is gently cultivated and complex. It skilfully [sic] avoids the excesses of the period while at the same time it resisted falling in to the contrived patterns so familiar in Mino work."

As a novice, I am sure I am missing a connection here. But to give a specific answer about sugata, hamon, etc.,, I first need to know whether or not Tadayoshi is somehow connected to the Naoe-Shizu school. Any hints?

John C. 

[Jacques]

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I first need to know whether or not Tadayoshi is somehow connected to the Naoe-Shizu school.

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In no way

[John C]

At this stage of my development, I should have picked a gentler task! 

It seems Tadayoshi's style was similar to that of the masters he copied; e.g., Shizu Kaneuji. One of his “trademarks” was to use a “dense” ko-mokume hada known as konuka-hada. I have also seen this described as “tight” or “fine.” (https://nihonto.com/shodai-hizen-tadayoshi-初代肥前忠吉/). Another was his chu-suguha with deep ko-nie and ashi. Of note, early on Shodai Tadayoshi had a coarse, unrefined Koto style hada called Hizen tetsu (blackish steel with ko-mokume hada typical of Koto work). This would be different than what would be seen in a typical Naoe-Shizu blade.

In terms of Naoe-Shizu, the style was similar to that of Mino shizu with less curvature and somewhat lighter blades. (http://www.sho-shin.com/naoe.htm). In addition, they favored a wide mihaba and O-kissaki (https://new.uniquejapan.com/a-naoe-shizu-school-juyo-katana/). Moreover, the typical Naoe “signature” was no signature (mumei).

 

I know this does not answer the question directly, however I think the first step in identifying an utsushi blade would be to understand the styles of 1) the individual purporting to have made the blade, or 2) the school to which it was attributed. I will study the elements of kantei over the next few months and re-visit this topic at a later date...and hopefully be able to provide more cogent response. Oh, well. I gave it a shot.

John C.

[Mark S.]

  On 1/6/2023 at 11:49 PM, Darkcon said:

 

Should you know an answer, it's nothing but kind, to share!

 

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Most definitely not the point to this.

[John C]

  On 1/8/2023 at 3:59 AM, Darkcon said:

These 2 photos have something in common

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John V.:

Is that an example of Hizen tetsu or maybe slag left behind in the forging process?

John C.

[John C]

  On 1/8/2023 at 1:35 AM, John C said:

This would be different than what would be seen in a typical Naoe-Shizu blade.

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Okay. So I think I got it partly correct. The statement I made above was in reference to the article's mention of "a subdued whitish color", which is different from what Tadayoshi was doing (at least that was my understanding). I will need to go through Markus Sesko's kantei series (which I have already started reading) to further my understanding of what these elements actually look like on a blade. Applying the verbiage to actual examples will hopefully help me visualize the differences.

Thank you,

John C.

[Jacques]

Utsushi can be perfect copy (Munetsugu's Kagemitsu utsushi) or made in the style of (even if the term utsushi should not be used strictly speaking). Concerning Tadayoshi (shodai) he worked mostly in the style of.

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"Hizen Tetsu" featuring 'jifu' resulting in elaborate chikei was representative of early koto blades, based on what i read

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Jifu has nothing to do with chikei the jifu is a kind of patch of utsuri.

 

John C.

 

The article from ninonto.com is too generalist to be really useful.

 

 ps no digression please

[Bazza]

John,

 

If you have the English set of To-ken Bijutsu read Han Bing Siong's series of articles on studying at the sword museum.  Jifu utsuri is discussed in one of his articles.

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

  On 1/9/2023 at 4:33 AM, Darkcon said:

 

Clearly not shingane, unless the kawagane was less than a millimeter thick 🤣

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In places, the kawagane could easily be less than a mm thick. Especially on Hizento.
(Below isn't a Hizento, but shows how uneven the skin steel can be.)

[Brian]

You can't tell how many polishes something has had, since if there wasn't much damage or pitting, a polish would remove almost nothing. One bad scratch, and a blade might look like it had 10 polishes. There is no way to know how many polishes something had.
Also, I am not one to go with the "all tanto are mono construction" since I have a late Koto, early Shinto tanto showing core steel and I firmly believe many were made that way. As for Hizen tanto, you should ask Roger Robertshaw maybe.

[ChrisW]

  On 1/9/2023 at 6:55 AM, Brian said:

In places, the kawagane could easily be less than a mm thick. Especially on Hizento.
(Below isn't a Hizento, but shows how uneven the skin steel can be.)

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That picture is both beautiful and a reminder of how flaws can quickly come to the surface and what allows for the durability of nihonto. This ought to be framed and put on a wall!

[kissakai]

I have saved the micro cross section but have enhanced, resized and removed the 'ghosting' on the background.

Not sure if it is of any use but have added it below:

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by kissakai
Line added

[Jacques]

As I see that some people have a strong tendency to digress, I will keep (except for one person) the answers to myself.