Japanese Sword

[Hal]

Hi,

Thank you for adding me. I collect and research military history, but I have limited experience and knowledge regarding Japanese swords. Recently, I acquired a Japanese sword, which was brought back by an Australian soldier who fought in New Guinea during WW2.

I have no interest in selling this item, nor in the value of it. The historical aspect for me is important.

I have appended hereto a number of photos of this sword and I would appreciate any input regarding it.

You will note, the tang has rust on it and I am unable to see any writing. I am reluctant to remove the rust for fear of destroying anything that might be written on it.

Any assistance proffered will be appreciated.

Regards

Hal

 

 

[raaay]

Hal , 

 

( do not clean or try to remove any rust from the sword and especial the tang   ) a light oil will do for the moment , by the way you do have l have a proper professional trained Japanese sword polisher in Australia  , check the Nihonto info on the NMB links ASAP .

[rematron]

Hi Hal. Welcome! 

 

There are quite a few people here who can help you learn more about your sword (I'm not one of them  )  They'll want some clear comprehensive photos of your blade to get a better idea as it is sometimes challenging to do this from photographs.  You'll need to post a picture of the whole blade in one shot from the tip of the sword to the butt of the tang.  With the sword laying on a soft surface on its side, take the picture from directly above so that it is not distorted.  This view will show the entire shape of the blade which is very important in determining age.  Secondly, you'll want to take a picture of the tip of the blade from a couple different angles.

 

And yes, as already stated, do not clean the tang (or the blade for that matter). I know you don't plan on selling the blade but doing any kind of cleaning of the tang will destroy its historical value as well as it's collectability.

 

Cheers!

[Hal]

Thank you for your input people.

 

raaay, I prefer the sword to remain in its present state and rematron, I will take photos of the blade in accordance to your instructions and upload these soon.

[John C]

4 hours ago, Hal said:

I would appreciate any input regarding it.

Hal:

You will also want to brush up on Japanese sword terminology. You may hear that the blade is O suriage mumei with two mekugi ana (shortened blade, usually at the tang that has no signature and has two holes for bamboo handle pins). Many of the folks here use that terminology regularly to describe what they are seeing. Check out the Nihonto info tab and the FAQ tab for more info on terminology and blade care.

John C. 

[David Flynn]

G'day Hal,  Where in Oz are you?     I'm in Sydney if I can help.

[Hal]

Thank you J, I have already tried learning some of the terminologies.

To David Flynn, I live in Brisbane. Thank you for your offer to assist. I guess once I upload better photos of the sword, more information may be given.

With the sword came a piece of cloth, it has written on it the Japanese owner's name, but it is very difficult to decipher. His rank is written as sub-lieutenant. Someone also wrote on it, 'very good sword'.

I understand the sword was acquired at Milne Bay, New Guinea during WW2. Unfortunately, the acquirer of the sword is deceased and so is the person whom the sword was handed to. I have no information about the deceased parties.

 

 

[Hal]

Please find hereunder photos of the blade. Hopefully, they are good enough and again, thank you for your input.

[rematron]

Sorry to be super picky Hal but I guess I needed to specify that the blade should be photographed removed from the tsuka (handle). I only implied it by saying ‘butt of the tang’ which we can’t see because it’s covered by the tsuka, together with the tip of the blade in your new photos. 
 

p.s. I swear I’m not messing with you. The full naked metal piece minus all embellishments is the proper way to judge the sword. If you were even able to remove the habaki (the metal collar between the blade and the nakago (tang), that would be the very best way to view it. You can remove the habaki by pulling down on it towards the nakago. 

[Hal]

No offence taken, I am here to learn from those who have a much greater knowledge than I. 

I'll upload the pictures within twelve hours and thank you.

[rematron]

A couple of focused pics of part of the blade would be helpful too while you’re at it. It’s a little difficult to see grain or texture or hamon with your first pictures. 

[Hal]

Here are the pictures that are required. Again, thank you.

[Hal]

I just noticed, if you see very fine white lines on the sword, it's dog hairs of all things

[rematron]

Much better. There’s the hamon! I think you’ll get some good feedback now. I wish I were more experienced. My very limited experience says late Muromchi. Maybe koto. A lot of those blades are o-suriage meaning they were shortened by chopping the nakago. And the sugata (shape of the sword) has a  deep enough sori (curve) to be pre-Edo.  Now we’ll see if I’m right… This is my first time posting an opinion so hopefully I don’t embarrass myself too much.  I’m probably too green to be guessing at all.  I’m gonna shut up now.  Hahaha. 

[David Flynn]

Hard to tell with the condition, however, I have a feeling this is a Shinshinto,  trying to look Koto.  The overall sugarta doesn't look right to me, to be Osuriage.   Also, the hole appear  to be drilled.   I have seen a few of this type of sword.

 

[rematron]

It looks like the hamon extends well into the habaki and at least a little bit into the nakago to finish that last arch. Maybe?  
 

[Jacques D.]

It is impossible to identify an unpolished blade (as well as a polished one) only on photos and even more so when there are no measurements. All you will get is speculation. After that, you can do what you want with it but you have been warned...

[Hal]

Thank you John C., I have suddenly been overwhelmed with Japanese terminologies and it will take a little time to digest and interpret these.

 

You are quite right Jaques D., a picture does not always tell a thousand words, but pictures are an indicator at the very least. 

 

As you might have read in my introduction, I collect military items and research their owners' service history. There is an abundance of fakes about and it is best to physically inspect items.

 

Because I reside in Australia and have very limited knowledge of Samurai swords, I took the advice of a friend and requested information from members of this forum.

 

I do not intend to sell this sword thus I appreciate any information about it in its historical perspective, knowing quite well there will be discrepancies and different points of view.

 

Any information from a respected forum as this is worth having.

 

I am still in the process of establishing where in New Guinea the sword was acquired and the identity of the original owner, a difficult task as the acquirer of the sword is not known to me and he is deceased. But, that is another story.

 

[rematron]

Hal, it is a real Nihonto.  That much is certain.  @Jacques D. Is correct that we are speculating and that measurements would be good information for members here to help in that speculation.  And as you stated, you are okay with that. But as far as whether it is fake? It is not fake. How old it is, where it was made, and by who  are all the things that are hard to tell from photos.  @Jacques D. is just warning you to take the speculations with a grain of salt.  And it sounds like you understand that.  You will never truly know until a very knowledgeable person holds it in their hands but you will probably get more opinions from other members about these questions in the coming hours and days.  From what I’ve seen on this forum in the past, the current amount of contributors to your inquiry is quite small and I’m expecting it to grow.  No promises though.  Members do tire of speculating over photos of unpolished Nihonto and participation can be hit or miss.

[Rivkin]

I'll join a previously made statement.

It has an unusual shape with a very slight fumbari/koshizori.

The nakago is suriage and is patinated as it it was done in the early Edo or around.

The hamon even assuming big chunk of what we see is hadori is very wide and periodic gunome. This makes it unlikely to be a really old blade.

If its shinto then its something along the lines of Jumyo, but its a big "if" because the shape is strange, and we have to assume how the hamon looks underneath this hadori.

Shinshinto or even somewhat later is quite possible here, in which case the shape and patination are sort of purposeful while the work will likely be average execution in this style.

 

 

 

[Hal]

Thank you rematron. I quite understand the difficulties involved in identifying such objects, in fact most objects of historical value. I think some forum members need to understand there are some participants, like me, who have absolutely no idea about Japanese swords. Thus there has to be a starting point in the learning process, which is based on the guidance of more experienced forum members and the thirst for knowledge of the 'newbie'. I quite understand speculation, discrepancy and differing perceptions may evolve, that's normal.

 

I began to peruse through the internet to learn about Japanese swords and frankly, I was overwhelmed by the amount of information that is available. Having never learnt the Japanese language and being presented with Japanese technical terms, the eras, the schools and so on is challenging and it will take time.

 

I am intrigued by this sword, I never owned one, nor did I expect to acquire one. My military collection encompasses only a couple of Japanese items, namely a WW2 captured flag and a couple of medals, the rest is Australian and European.

 

I am quite happy with the sword's general history and allied information. It's a starting point.  

 

Thank you for your input Rivkin, I will decipher your comment later today. I am still learning Japanese terminologies. 

[Stephen]

Open the pod bay door Hal..Hal..

Sorry mate I had to get that out of my system.

Here's a site with tons of information terminology and how to measure your blade.

That should have been the first step we've asked for.

Anyway enjoy your adventure it's the long one but rewarding.

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm

 

[Hal]

Thank you Stephen, your sense of humour has left me speechless. Seriously, thank you for the guidance and suggestion.

At my age, collecting Samurai swords would not be feasible, taking also into consideration the costs involved.

Obviously, I will investigate my sword's history and other variables, as I have done with my non-Japanese military items.

I find the path of investigating an item's history and its owner's service record both challenging and rewarding.  

 

 

[Brian]

Hal, those here saying "At my age..." would be surprised to find out the average age here.
For example, you should take a guess at our forum friend Stephen's age....not to mention the age of our member Rich who owns the site Stephen linked you to.
Age is definitely not a factor in collecting Nihonto

[Hal]

I agree, age should not be a factor in collecting, but if you start collecting at a younger age, you generally have more time to do so and generally longer to enjoy the fruits of your labour.

 

It also depends on your ability to pay for such items and/or restoration. 

 

I am 67 years of age and although I have been collecting and researching military items and their owners' service history for around thirty years, there are times I wish I had started at a much earlier age.

 

I guess the important aspect is to be happy with what you collect, irrespective of age.