Kai Gunto tsuka question

[Bencld]

Hi all. Any clarification on the different style of ito wrap ? Apologies if this has been covered but I have long covid and it’s a chore to do anything so I didn’t do a search !! Mine is the top one and has the twisted wrap and the bottom one is a flat wrap ?

 

 

 

[robinalexander]

Hi Chris,

 

I believe the Ito can come in either flat (Tachi Tsukagashira Kake maki) or rolled (Tsumami maki).  Have a look at this great download courtesy of NMB member Edwolf from 2017.  

 

http://www.tsukamaki.net/PDF/ArtTsukamaki.pdf. 

 

I have a few and most are 'rolled'.  One 1942 Yoshishige with upgraded koshirae (nice) is flat and well used.

 

Interestingly, a later collection addition from Masashige has a bit of both same as your bottom pic (above).

 

Rob

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Have always thought the flat wrap was the most attractive for Kai Gunto and an integral part of the design.

[vajo]

I thought too that the flat ito binding with the top knot is the regular standard for kai gunto.

But i see some others over the time.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Chris,

it looks as if the TSUKA MAKI style of your upper sword handle was HINERI MAKI.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Various Kai Gunto from over the years, just one had 'regular' Ito. It was a very nice Koshirae with Mon, definitely prefer the flat style the most. 

 

[Dave R]

 I am always wary when I see the Ito-maki style change along the length of the Tsuka, unless it's Katatamaki which usually starts and finishes with Hineri-maki.

  I get really wary when I don't see a good finishing knot.... To me it indicates damage, and then repair by unskilled persons unable to rebind and finish properly, either from lack of skill, or lack of enough Ito.

[Bencld]

Thanks all. Interesting. You can’t bank on standard in this game! 
 

My main thought in the difference between the two was that the flat wrap was a cheaper easier/quicker way to do it than the twisted one? Don’t know if that is true or not?

 

Chris.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Chris , in my experience swords with the flat wrap are much more likely to have quality blades in them .

Ian Brooks

[PNSSHOGUN]

There are statements claiming the flat wrap is weaker and more prone to coming apart compared to the traditional wrap. Considering how many of these in both style have survived 70+ years in perfect condition.....hard to make any conclusions. 

[Dave R]

  On 1/6/2023 at 3:56 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

There are statements claiming the flat wrap is weaker and more prone to coming apart compared to the traditional wrap. Considering how many of these in both style have survived 70+ years in perfect condition.....hard to make any conclusions. 

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 ...And how many of those swords have been carried and used in the field over the last 70+ years?

  If by flat-wrap you mean Hira Maki, it's the older style most often seen on Tachi, so could be considered higher status.

[sbf]

Researcher Nick Komiya (who recently passed) unearthed the original Japanese Navy specifications for the Kai Gunto. They called very specifically for the hira maki wrap with the knot on the edge of the tsuka.

 

   Steve

[vajo]

Flat wrap is the historical correct tachi stye.

 

 

 

 

[Conway S]

Greetings, 

 

Can anyone clarify if the black fabric same found on souvenir swords was also used on wartime production swords? And if so, when does this variation appear? I am referring to the sword pictured below, which is the Inaba sword I posted in the Arsenal Stamps thread. Thanks. 

 

Conway 

 

[John C]

  On 8/18/2023 at 2:31 PM, Conway S said:

Can anyone clarify if the black fabric same found on souvenir swords was also used on wartime production swords?

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Conway:

I believe the same' used on souvenirs is a type of celluloid, which they did use on some swords toward the end of the war.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/18/2023 at 2:31 PM, Conway S said:

if the black fabric same found on souvenir swords was also used on wartime production swords?

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Yes, I have seen the black fabric on wartime kaigunto, and I remeber one that was mid-war'ish on the date, which supriesed me because I had previously only seen the fabric on late-war swords.  As to yours, just from the picture, it looks like yours is painted/lacquered directly onto the wooded tsuka, which I've seen frequently on late-war kaigunto.  You have it in hand, though, can you tell if there is a layer of fabric that has been painted over?

 

  On 8/18/2023 at 8:18 PM, John C said:

Conway:

I believe the same' used on souvenirs is a type of celluloid, which they did use on some swords toward the end of the war.

John C.

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John,

I, too, used to think that celluloid was a late-war invention, but it is seen on swords throughout the range of war years.  My Mantetsu, dated 1941, has it.  Also, do you have links or examples of celluloid on souvenir swords?  Don't think I've seen an example of that.  Not a criticism, just wondering.

 

[vajo]

Celluloid is made by mixing cellulose nitrate, camphor and ethanol together. At end of war there was no longer a celluloid industry in Japan. All three basic materials were hardly available anymore. The raw materials were urgently needed in the munitions factories and in medicine. I cannot imagine that the production of artificial ray skin would have been decisive for the war. 

 

 

Celluloid wasn't cheap "plastic" as the most think when they see celluloid same. It was expensive. Surely much more expensive then normal "same" which everyday came in tons from Japanese fishmarkets.

 

Before the war 90% of the worldwide camphor came from the chinese island of Taiwan (Formosa). The camphor forests on the island was the base for the camphor production.

 

 

During the war Japans movie and camera industrie use paper as replacement for celluloid.

 

You can find all those facts about celluloid in the net but the community is resitant against celluloid same and calls it cheap plastic. How many real celluloid did you have at home? And if it is cheap why it is not used anymore? 

[Kiipu]

Besides the black canvass that was used, I have also noted the use of a black "electrical tape" type of material.  Does anyone know what the correct term is for this?  Below is a link to one of the better illustrations of this material in use on an Inaba.

Navy Rinji Model

[John C]

  On 8/19/2023 at 2:46 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

examples of celluloid on souvenir swords?

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I took another look at mine. It appears to be the type of black canvas Thomas spoke about.

I apologize to everyone for the incorrect information.

John C.

[Kiipu]

  On 8/19/2023 at 5:09 PM, John C said:

It appears to be the type of black canvas Thomas spoke about.

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Do you think the canvas was dyed or painted black?

[John C]

  On 8/19/2023 at 5:34 PM, Kiipu said:

Do you think the canvas was dyed or painted black?

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Hard to say. But under a loupe, the edge of one of the chips looks black, which may indicate it was dyed then lacquered to give a shine.

John C.

[Kiipu]

And also maybe to waterproof the canvass?  Plain canvass would be like a sponge.  The late war Type 100 made by Nan-Man Arsenal used a rubberized canvass material possibly for the same reason?

[Conway S]

@Bruce Pennington  It's the Inaba sword I posted in the Arsenal Stamps thread. I found it for sale online. I was just wondering if this set up would be considered late war because similar material is found on the souvenir swords. From the discussion above I see that it is not necessarily late war. Here is another close up of the same sword.

 

Conway 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/19/2023 at 7:52 PM, Conway S said:

I see that it is not necessarily late war

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Yes, but I think this one you've posted most likely is late-war.  The blackened kabutogane, and painted same' (or rubber) are common characteristics of the late-war kaigunto.

 

Here's a pic from that link Thomas mentioned, thanks Thomas!