johnb Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 A friend of mine here in Jakarta told me about the sword given to him by his father. He sent me these pics. Shortened and signed both sides no real signs of damage except the very tip of the Kissaki is broken. Any thoughts and of course translations gratefully received. Thanks in advance. JohnB Quote
Nobody Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 The mei in the upper picture is ... 武州下原住正重作 (Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku) - maybe made in late 16C. Quote
Ted Tenold Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 The sword is not in good enough polish to determine it's health or workmanship. What I can say is that the signature is very poorly inscribed and hard to read. Also the sword has been shortened, as part of the signature has been cut away. Not much more can be said for it. The only way of determining anything else would be to send it to a polisher for futher evaluation. There are expenses and time involved, and the chances are very slim that it will be a good candidate for restoration. That's not to say it should be relegated to garden work though. Keep it oiled wrapped up and enjoy it for the sentiment it holds. Quote
Nobody Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 I do not know its current condition. But it seems to be one of Shimohara school’s swords. Ref: viewtopic.php?f=15&p=43562#p43562 http://www.museum.fussa.tokyo.jp/sword/index.html The signature looks close to one of Fujishiro oshigata. Quote
Ted Tenold Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 Heh heh, okay...well, not so poor that Moriyama-san can't read it all. :lol: I could see "Bushu ju x x x shige saku". It does look similar to the Fujishiro oshigata, though not very "artfully" rendered by the smith. Quote
pcfarrar Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 Isn't "Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku" a bit like "Bishu Osafune Sukesada" in that many of them are Kazuchimono? Quote
Jacques Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 Hi, The mei in the upper picture is ... 武州下原住正重作 (Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku) - maybe made in late 16C. Just a little correct, The school is Shitahara and not Shimohara Quote
Nobody Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 Just a little correct, The school is Shitahara and not Shimohara Yes, you are correct as almost always. Quote
reinhard Posted June 25, 2009 Report Posted June 25, 2009 For those, who like to participate in the translation game. You better hold your nose while diving..... reinhard Quote
sencho Posted June 26, 2009 Report Posted June 26, 2009 Hi, The mei in the upper picture is ... 武州下原住正重作 (Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku) - maybe made in late 16C. Just a little correct, The school is Shitahara and not Shimohara Jacques, Reinhard or Mori-san [sic] for the uneducated like me.... what is the difference between.... 武州下原 Bushu Shitahara and 武州下原 Bushu Shimohara in as far as location, school and pronunciation.... if anything at all??? Regards Quote
Nobody Posted June 26, 2009 Report Posted June 26, 2009 Shitahara (下原) is an old place name where the smiths group lived. Generally speaking, 下原 usually reads Shimohara. However, Shitahara is a preferred reading in this case. The Shitahara school originated in the area of Hachioji during the late Muromachi period. This group is considered to be part of the Soshu tradition and often produced swords in nie-deki and forged in mokume hada. The top swordsmiths from this school include Omura Kaboku and Musashi Taro Yasukuni. Ref. http://www.swordsofjapan.com/Shitahara.htm If you have the book “The connoisseur's book of Japanese swords” by Kokan Nagayama, refer to p. 208. Ref. http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=zPys ... t&resnum=8 Quote
sencho Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Mori-san.... I have noticed both Shitahara and Shimohara names being used heavily on mei translations of many internet sites but no real explanations of the difference between the two.... ... So many thanks for this! Best regards Quote
Guido Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Nigel, both readings are indeed possible, but Shitahara is the more commonly used in this particular case; same as "Kinmichi" instead of "Kanemichi", or "Chôgi" instead of "Nagayoshi". Since we can't go back in time to find out how those names were pronounced, modern pronounciations / readings are basically just guesses. It's not really a question of "correct" or "incorrect", but - as Koichi pointed out - prefrences. Quote
reinhard Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 what is the difference between....武州下原 Bushu Shitahara and 武州下原 Bushu Shimohara Like Moriyama-san pointed out already: There is none. It's just a matter of agreement how to translate the kanji of "shimo/shita". BTW, Moriyama-san has a right to be adressed by his proper name like everybody else here. If you are friends with him, you might call him Koichi, if not, it's Mr.Moriyama or Moriyama-san. Calling him "Mori-san" is an inadequate abbreviation. - I'm interested in somebody trying to translate the remaining parts on sashi-ura. This is going to be some fun, for they look even worse than the mei on sashi-omote. Anybody trying? reinhard Quote
sencho Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 is an inadequate abbreviation. reinhard Had a feeling you, of all members, might pick up on that. However it is not an abbreviation.... just playing with 山 ... and is certainly meant with respect rather than casual or informal... as this is 'off topic', please p.m. me with any reply. Thanks for Reinhard sama's ( ) and Gui-chan's ( ) explanations on this... very informative. Regards Quote
Ted Tenold Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Nigel, both readings are indeed possible, but Shitahara is the more commonly used in this particular case; same as "Kinmichi" instead of "Kanemichi", or "Chôgi" instead of "Nagayoshi". Since we can't go back in time to find out how those names were pronounced, modern pronounciations / readings are basically just guesses. It's not really a question of "correct" or "incorrect", but - as Koichi pointed out - prefrences. Or "Yoshimichi" for Guido. :D Too many times I've had to tell folks "Actually his name is "GEEE-Doh" not "GWEEE do. He's German, not Italian but he does have good taste in suits". Quote
Ted Tenold Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 You better hold your nose while diving..... I gave up on this one after almost getting "the bends". Quote
johnb Posted June 28, 2009 Author Report Posted June 28, 2009 Thanks for all the help on this guys. Most appreciated!!! Not sure I agree with your "bends" analogy Ted, as bends is about arterial gas embolisms :D ...but point taken. Thanks again. John B Quote
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