A friends Sword

[johnb]

A friend of mine here in Jakarta told me about the sword given to him by his father. He sent me these pics. Shortened and signed both sides no real signs of damage except the very tip of the Kissaki is broken. Any thoughts and of course translations gratefully received. Thanks in advance.

 

JohnB

[Nobody]

The mei in the upper picture is ...

 

武州下原住正重作 (Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku)

- maybe made in late 16C.

 

[Ted Tenold]

The sword is not in good enough polish to determine it's health or workmanship. What I can say is that the signature is very poorly inscribed and hard to read. Also the sword has been shortened, as part of the signature has been cut away.

 

Not much more can be said for it. The only way of determining anything else would be to send it to a polisher for futher evaluation. There are expenses and time involved, and the chances are very slim that it will be a good candidate for restoration. That's not to say it should be relegated to garden work though. Keep it oiled wrapped up and enjoy it for the sentiment it holds.

[Nobody]

I do not know its current condition. But it seems to be one of Shimohara school’s swords.

Ref:

viewtopic.php?f=15&p=43562#p43562

http://www.museum.fussa.tokyo.jp/sword/index.html

 

The signature looks close to one of Fujishiro oshigata.

[Ted Tenold]

Heh heh, okay...well, not so poor that Moriyama-san can't read it all. :lol: I could see "Bushu ju x x x shige saku".

 

It does look similar to the Fujishiro oshigata, though not very "artfully" rendered by the smith.

[pcfarrar]

Isn't "Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku" a bit like "Bishu Osafune Sukesada" in that many of them are Kazuchimono?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The mei in the upper picture is ...

 

武州下原住正重作 (Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku)

- maybe made in late 16C.

 

 

 

Just a little correct,

 

The school is Shitahara and not Shimohara

[Nobody]

Just a little correct,

 

The school is Shitahara and not Shimohara

Yes, you are correct as almost always.

[reinhard]

For those, who like to participate in the translation game. You better hold your nose while diving.....

 

reinhard

[sencho]

Hi,

 

The mei in the upper picture is ...

 

武州下原住正重作 (Bushu Shimohara ju Masashige saku)

- maybe made in late 16C.

 

Just a little correct,

 

The school is Shitahara and not Shimohara

 

Jacques, Reinhard or Mori-san [sic]

 

for the uneducated like me.... what is the difference between....

 

武州下原 Bushu Shitahara and 武州下原 Bushu Shimohara

 

in as far as location, school and pronunciation.... if anything at all???

 

Regards

[Nobody]

Shitahara (下原) is an old place name where the smiths group lived.

Generally speaking, 下原 usually reads Shimohara. However, Shitahara is a preferred reading in this case.

 

The Shitahara school originated in the area of Hachioji during the late Muromachi period. This group is considered to be part of the Soshu tradition and often produced swords in nie-deki and forged in mokume hada. The top swordsmiths from this school include Omura Kaboku and Musashi Taro Yasukuni.

Ref. http://www.swordsofjapan.com/Shitahara.htm

 

 

If you have the book “The connoisseur's book of Japanese swords” by Kokan Nagayama, refer to p. 208.

Ref. http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=zPys ... t&resnum=8

[sencho]

Mori-san....

 

I have noticed both Shitahara and Shimohara names being used heavily on mei translations of many internet sites but no real explanations of the difference between the two....

 

... So many thanks for this!

 

Best regards

[Guido]

Nigel, both readings are indeed possible, but Shitahara is the more commonly used in this particular case; same as "Kinmichi" instead of "Kanemichi", or "Chôgi" instead of "Nagayoshi". Since we can't go back in time to find out how those names were pronounced, modern pronounciations / readings are basically just guesses. It's not really a question of "correct" or "incorrect", but - as Koichi pointed out - prefrences.

[reinhard]

what is the difference between....武州下原 Bushu Shitahara and 武州下原 Bushu Shimohara

 

Like Moriyama-san pointed out already: There is none. It's just a matter of agreement how to translate the kanji of "shimo/shita". BTW, Moriyama-san has a right to be adressed by his proper name like everybody else here. If you are friends with him, you might call him Koichi, if not, it's Mr.Moriyama or Moriyama-san. Calling him "Mori-san" is an inadequate abbreviation. - I'm interested in somebody trying to translate the remaining parts on sashi-ura. This is going to be some fun, for they look even worse than the mei on sashi-omote. Anybody trying?

 

reinhard

[sencho]

is an inadequate abbreviation.

reinhard

 

Had a feeling you, of all members, might pick up on that.

 

However it is not an abbreviation.... just playing with 山 ... and is certainly meant with respect rather than casual or informal...

 

as this is 'off topic', please p.m. me with any reply.

 

Thanks for Reinhard sama's ( ) and Gui-chan's ( ) explanations on this... very informative.

 

Regards

[Ted Tenold]

Nigel, both readings are indeed possible, but Shitahara is the more commonly used in this particular case; same as "Kinmichi" instead of "Kanemichi", or "Chôgi" instead of "Nagayoshi". Since we can't go back in time to find out how those names were pronounced, modern pronounciations / readings are basically just guesses. It's not really a question of "correct" or "incorrect", but - as Koichi pointed out - prefrences.

 

Or "Yoshimichi" for Guido. :D Too many times I've had to tell folks "Actually his name is "GEEE-Doh" not "GWEEE do. He's German, not Italian but he does have good taste in suits".

[Ted Tenold]

You better hold your nose while diving.....

 

I gave up on this one after almost getting "the bends".

[johnb]

Thanks for all the help on this guys. Most appreciated!!! Not sure I agree with your "bends" analogy Ted, as bends is about arterial gas embolisms :D ...but point taken. Thanks again.

 

John B