"Vines" Tanto Koshirae

chuck · June 21, 2009

My first Japanese blade. I'm a little intimidated posting here, I feel like I don't know nearly enough.

My thanks to Fred Lohman, who was able to take all the peices and parts I sent him, and assemble it into a work of art.

I'm starting separate threads for the blade and the mei, in the appropriate sub-forums. Please

help out with the mei if you are able! The thread for the blade is here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5583&p=43423#p43423

The fuchi/koshira/kojira are all orginal to the blade. The tanto did not have menuki when I found it, so those are modern reproductions. If you know anything about the work or the style, please help me out! I'd love to know more about what I have here!

The Tsuba did not orginally come with the blade, but is also an antique (Edo period, I am told). It fight the theme of the tanto beautifully, so I added it. The tsuba is unsigned, unfortunately.

Thanks for veiwing! All comments are appreciated!

peace.

chuck · June 21, 2009

Help out with the mei here!!! viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5585

Much thanks!!

peace.

chuck · June 23, 2009

I realized that perhaps it would be a good idea, rather than saying "hey, tell me whatever you can about these", if I had some actual questions to use as a starting point. Here we go:

I've been looking around the internet and following auctions on eBay and I see a lot of carved fuchi/koshira, but these are the only ones I've seen with only gold inlay. Are these rare?

Is there a particular smith or school known for working in this style? Could these be attrubited to him/them?

Can an approximate date be known by looking at them? I am told that they are orginal to the blade, but I wonder if they might be older.

Does the "theme" of a fuchi/koshira (or a tsuuba, for that matter) have an effect on value? I haven't seen a lot of "vine"-themed furnature, but I do see a lot of dragons, foo-dogs, fishermen, ect. I've noticed that "horse" themed items tend to fetch a premium on eBay. Are there other themes that are rare and sought after? (And are "vines" one of them?)

Thanks for your help!

peace.

Curran · June 23, 2009

Dear Chuck,

Quick look and reply:

Fuchi/Kashira/Kojiri are Higo school. Later period or possibly Edo Higo (Edo made version of Higo design). Fairly nice and sought after. Extra nice to have a kojiri with it. Yours have retained a good bit of the gold. The tsuba matches in design, but probably not school. It works fairly well, though some might want a Higo tsuba on it. "All matching" is more of a western train of thought than historical practice.

I might have gone with gold paulownia theme menuki or something more along Higo school lines, but overall looks like it is nice assembly. Are those seppa from Fred?

Mantis dude · June 23, 2009

Chuck,

Just a quick comment or 2, don't put too much into ebay, you will get a distorted view of the market. Ebay is filled with junk and occasional good stuff sometimes. But the level of collector is all over the place on ebay with too many people that don't know anything. Even the Japanese use ebay (US) to sell stuff that wouldn't go in Japan. Fittings of course have a value on a sword, however, I get the impression if you were to sell (or buy) fittings separately, prices would be higher. In other words, it seems the sum of the parts is more than the package. There are a lot of factors though that go into pricing. Gold inlay is used alot but your style is a bit different. In general, the more parts that match, the rarer they are, especially in good condition (obviously condition is a big factor). There are tons of different themes and styles and some are more common (as in dragons) than others (there is a 3 volume book set on fitting themes- plus a ton of other books that delve into the theme topics). While they go together, just remember that fittings and sword blades are separate studies so you find many collectors that specialize in one or the other although they aren't mutually exclusive. It is just so much to study that to become knowledgeable in one area is hard enough let alone 2. If you want to get a better feel for pricing, go to say Rich Stein's site and find links to the commercial sellers section. a few others have good links, even this site does I think. Browse those sites, you will more likely see quality pieces. You can also look at yahoo.jp - ebay in Japan failed, yahoo is the dominant online auction there. It is in Japanese obviously and there are plenty of repros there also but overall, I see a bit better level of quality (more often than ebay) but the quality is less than on the commercial sites. I don't expect to be anything more than a beginner with occasional insights into some things, still I find pricing to be one of the hardest things to get a handle on, since I don't deal in swords everyday and prices really are set or largely influenced in Japan. Since I have a slight obsession with praying mantis themed fittings I have a better idea of some types of fittings since I have dealt with them more often. There has been a change in pricing these past few years, the economy obviously has had an impact and prices are down. However, some maintain their old pricing (and likely aren't selling much) while others have dropped their prices a bit. However, the damn yen is more expensive than it was a few years ago against the US dollar and things cost me 20-30% in exchange rates. so many factors!!!!!

Ok just some real ramblings. Good luck!

docliss · June 23, 2009

Curran, is your statement ‘later period or possibly Edo Higo’ based upon the variation in width of the niju karakusa design; the quality of the iron; the lack of spontaneity of the design; or all three? Also, the surface of the kojiri looks as if the entire surface has been cross-hatched and the gold decoration applied upon this as on overlay, rather than an inlay – is this another indication of its later production? I would love to hear your rationale.

John L.

chuck · June 24, 2009

Dear Chuck,

Quick look and reply:

Fuchi/Kashira/Kojiri are Higo school. Later period or possibly Edo Higo (Edo made version of Higo design). Fairly nice and sought after. Extra nice to have a kojiri with it. Yours have retained a good bit of the gold. The tsuba matches in design, but probably not school. It works fairly well, though some might want a Higo tsuba on it. "All matching" is more of a western train of thought than historical practice.

Can you post pics of other Higo school work, or point me in the right direction? I'd love to see other pieces in this style, partularily the tsuba.

I might have gone with gold paulownia theme menuki or something more along Higo school lines, but overall looks like it is nice assembly. Are those seppa from Fred?

The seppa are from Fred.

The menuki - the story is: Ok, I'm a newbie, if that's not completely obvious. I purchaced a customized production katana with a "vines and dragon" theme - vines on the tsuba/fuchi/koshira and dragon menuki. I've taken up Iaido, and had a custom iaito made with the same theme.

After a while I contacted the guy what did the orginal customization, looking for a companion piece to make a diasho. None of the wakizashi blades he had were appropriate, and he didn't have the parts to customize a tanto in the same theme. So I went on eBay, and immediately discovered both this tanto, albeit in a state of disrepair, and the tsuba, in the theme I was looking for.

I took it as a sign that this was "meant to be", and, although I spent much much more money than I was looking to spend, I am also much happier with the result than I would be with a customized production piece. This is my first antique Japanese blade, and there is utterly no comparison between the real thing and a modern production blade.

Which explains the dragon menuki. And now the katana is the companion piece to the tanto, rather than the other way around.

Now, I stumbled across this website after I had sent the blade out for restoration, and now I realize that things are much more complex than I thought. I really lucked out with this tanto I think, but if I don't educate myself, I can really get burned in the future. So I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

Chuck,

Just a quick comment or 2, don't put too much into ebay, you will get a distorted view of the market. Ebay is filled with junk and occasional good stuff sometimes.

I've noticed that. There are fakes so fake that I can spot them. I actually just purchaced my second antique tsuba from eBay. I think it's one of the good ones. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0433244546 . Hasn't arrived yet.

(there is a 3 volume book set on fitting themes- plus a ton of other books that delve into the theme topics).

What is this three volume set and where can I get it?

Since I have a slight obsession with praying mantis themed fittings I have a better idea of some types of fittings since I have dealt with them more often.

I am in serious danger of becomming the "vines dude"! I have completly fallen in love with this theme. (The other vine themed piece I own (I hesitate to call it a "collection") is here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5405 )

Thanks for the comments!

Curran, is your statement ‘later period or possibly Edo Higo’ based upon the variation in width of the niju karakusa design; the quality of the iron; the lack of spontaneity of the design; or all three? Also, the surface of the kojiri looks as if the entire surface has been cross-hatched and the gold decoration applied upon this as on overlay, rather than an inlay – is this another indication of its later production? I would love to hear your rationale.

John L.

I am curious, being completely new, as to what "a lack of spontaniety of the design" means exactly. (It sounds vaguely insulting, and I'm not sure if I should express indignation on behalf of my tanto. (Lol)) How is this determined? Can you post pictures of a piece with a spontanious design? I like I said before, I'm new and still learning, and I'd like to understand the criteria by which these items are judged.

Thanks!

peace.

cspage · June 24, 2009

Far be it for me to put words in another’s mouth, but I can see where “lack of spontaneity” in the design might come from. The overall spacing of the elements in the vines, etc. is uniform and basically uninteresting. There are no unexpected delights such as space to rest one’s eyes or any variation in scale, no real contrast in the elements, nothing large, nothing small, nothing tiny, nothing huge. There is a sense of almost pattern-like execution, no sense of a human hand or heart in the design outside of the basic craft of the making. It’s a nice design, but only nice when compared, of course, to the best. I don’t think it’s insulting, just a matter of distinction between the top-of-the-line and the ordinary.

Just my two cents. No offense intended…ever.

Colin

Curran · June 24, 2009

Dear John and Chuck,

My reply to Chuck was very quick. He was patient enough to ask his questions twice and had not gotten a response from our motley crue. I decided to step in and 'start the ball rolling' if it would roll.

To answer John, I didn't think about it too much. Higo is very mainstream and I think many of us have seen many many variations of this gold vine paulownia fuchi/kashira. I just quickly looked and mentally dropped it where I thought it belonged timewise in the history of Higo and Edo Higo. The iron quality isn't great. It isn't bad. The pattern is applied with a rougher crosshatch, but the gold retention is relatively good and the overall look of the koshirae for a practicioner is quite fair.

(gotta go... I'll edit this reply later and finish my train of thought)

<<..later..>>

I thought about this a bit and how best to explain for Chuck's viewpoint. An analogy might be acceptable:

Higo fittings like Tiffany's or Stickley furniture is a long tradition. Much of the early work is very well done and very expensive to collect. The designs enjoyed great popularity and were copied (and mutated) a fair bit over the centuries. What started on one end of Japan and traveled to Edo during the "attendance / hostage program" of the shogunate, caught fad enough that artisans set up shop in Edo making Edo versions of the Higo items.

For sake of the analogy- Tiffanys is Tiffanys. People want the early work much more than say the 1980s or 1990s produced stuff that was made more for mass market. Yet the 1980s and 1990s stuff is still quite popular and enjoys a fair bit of resale value. Hence, as Mantis Dude said, your Higo f/k/kojiri are probably going to go for more unassembled rather than as on your assembly. Someone is always trying to get a Higo assembly together. It will be pointed out it is not the earlier better stuff, but it still has a name and look that attracts buyers.

Hope that helps.

chuck · June 25, 2009

Yes! Big help Curran! Much thanks!

...because like a nitwit I've gone and done something and now trying to understand what I've done and educate myself after the fact.

If I seem concerned with value at this point, it's only because I'm a little worried that this tanto might not be worth what I paid for it. But I am becoming much less concerned about that the more information I get. It seems like I may have done alright. Not the best of the best, but not crap either. I'm ok with that.

I am equally interested in the artistry of these items, how they are made and the history behind them. What characterized Higo work as different from other schools? Was "Higo" actually a brand like "Tiffanys"? Would a samurai could walk into a smith's shop that only sold "Higo" items? Or was it more like a style, where a smith might make a "Higo" set of koshira and then sell them next to a set in a different style?

Is there a search function here? I will search "Higo School" and see what comes up.

---I was kidding about the "insulting" thing. I meant to put "lol" there but I forgot. I will edit.

Thanks.

peace.

Bugyotsuji · June 25, 2009

If you've got some time, and haven't yet read it, compare this thread about a Higo Koshirae tanto,

Tsuba, etc. that I spent some time and money cleaning up.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4637

Curran · June 28, 2009

Chuck,

Your questions are much bigger than I can begin to tackle. Higo is so large that call it an umbrella of schools. Books are written on the individual schools within it. Some of the sub-schools are extremely distinct, but something can be Higo without being particularly distinct as belonging to one of the individual schools.

To borrow a phrase from a politician used years ago, after a while "(you) know it when you see it".

Here is an example in another live thread at the moment:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5578&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

You recognize the fuchi, kashira, kojiri pattern and iron. Red lacquer saya with a tapering shape to it.

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